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Poll
Should a country change it's ways for new immigrants?
Yes - we should do everything we can to make them welcome.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Yes - to a point. Just change a few things.
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
No - if they want to move here they should know how we do things.
40%
 40%  [ 4 ]
No - things change naturally, why force it on people.
40%
 40%  [ 4 ]
Unsure
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 10


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HauntedWebby
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:40 am Reply with quote

(for this question definition of "ways" is meant as language, education practices, laws, ect.)

I thought this would be a fun topic to start with since we have so many people from all different countries here.

This is going to be a poll to vote on, plus comments should be posted as to why you voted that way.

Remember keep it clean, clear and polite.

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TheosEleos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:32 am Reply with quote

I voted 'unsure' because I don't really know how things are written now.

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GeekyGuy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:48 am Reply with quote

I voted No - things change naturally, why force it on people.
The influx of immigrants always changes the area they settle into. That's what has made America a great place to live. And if you think about it, we're all immigrants here, unless you're an American Indian. Cultures adapt and change naturally, over time. People change their ways and habits, cities change, grow, shrink, or die altogether. People move, for work, or recreation. Languages are learned, and some are forgotten. 'Old Ways' or Traditions are honored, and remembered, but things change, and new ways and traditions are started.

The only constant is change, it's inevitable. But don't force me to change. (My ex tried that, and I did change, I'm now single Smile )

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Tao_Man
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:54 am Reply with quote

Well GeekyGuy said it well, but I had to chose not force becuase that touches on the heart of Taoism. Change will happen if we want it to or not, but to force anything is almost always bad.

People should be willing to change to welcome new peoples, but I'll be darned if I stop eating beef no matter how may Hindus come here.

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Last edited by Tao_Man on Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total 
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TheosEleos







PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:56 am Reply with quote

lol

Without beef I would never be able to do the Atkins diet.
 
swede
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:53 pm Reply with quote

I agree with GeekyGuy...
Quote:

The only constant is change, it's inevitable. But don't force me to change.

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sixonetonoffun
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:59 pm Reply with quote

I voted No - if they want to move here they should know how we do things.

I'd have to explain that what I mean by that. Is that each country has its own environment ethical-legal and otherwise. With the possible exception of the refugee who is being forced out of one country because of the powers in charge. I think that immigration is a privilege and that in dong so one is agreeing to obey the laws of the land where ever it may be.

But there is much gray here in the instance of illegal immigration. I live in a state that is known for its generous welfare programs. Yet an illegal couple will not receive public assistance to pay for medical care for that child even if it was born here.

I'm torn on this issue in some ways but fact is there just isn't enough funds to go around and budgets have been hit hard. Medical costs are high and millions of us are without any coverage at all. But I still believe we have to take care of children. I think turning away children for any reason is just wrong regardless of ones religious or political beliefs. On the other hand I don't feel that large companies should be allowed to hire the illegal couples either.

And it happens all over. I've seen it everywhere from the farms to the large factories in Chicago, Des Moines, Louisville literally everywhere. Which angers and frustrates me as I strongly feel that those are jobs that are taken away from my neighbors or even my family.

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swede







PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:33 pm Reply with quote

Quote:

if they want to move here they should know how we do things


This is a touchy situation here also. We have, I think, the largest Arabic population, outside of the Middle East. A friend was telling me that they are trying to force the school district in her city to add the Arabic language to the school curriculum. Many businesses in this area of the city have their signs in Arabic. Most of the "non-Arabic" citizens are fighting back saying that they are not taking the time to learn our language, why should we learn theirs. The English language is our language and they should learn and use that.

I am sure they understand and for the most part adhere to the laws of our land. My question is where we draw the line, if we draw one, on them adjusting to our culture versus us having to adjust to their culture and beliefs.
In Florida there was a Muslim woman who applied for a driver’s license and refused to remove her veil for the picture. The state refused to issue the license. It went to court and the judge stated (not exact words, this is from memory) that having a drivers license is a privilege and the state does not have to issue one if you don’t follow their requirements.

I think the gray area also expands to regular legal immigrants and what we should expect from them and what they should expect from us as Americans. We should accept them for who they are and where they come from. After all, that is the basis of our country. However, as time goes we have become more and more “Americanized” and have certain ways and livelihoods that we feel should be understood. This is more prevalent then ever since September 11th and all incoming immigrants need to understand that and need to learn to “change” themselves to be better accepted in our society and to enjoy our freedoms.
 
Tao_Man







PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:50 pm Reply with quote

There is privet and public life. In public everyone has to conform to the "Norm" at least as far as they can. In privet you can do pretty much anything as long at is legal,

I have seen a group of Asians talking among themselves and have people tell them to speak English. Now why should they have to? Now if they went to the DMV then yes they should speak English.

Its great if people want to retain there culture and teach it to their children and others.

I go to your house I'll speak what ever you want, you come to my house and we will speak English, or at least Okie.

I hate to make fun of other people for who English is not their mother language, but a Vietnamese with an Okie accent still cracks me up.
 
HauntedWebby







PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:13 pm Reply with quote

I voted No - things change naturally, why force it on people.

As stated change will happen, I just don't want to change myself in ways I think I shouldn't have to. I'm selfish, it's the American way Wink

I don't mind immigrants. I think their lives have to be pretty bad to choose to go to another country to live. I mean no matter how bad life is for me I've never considered moving to another country .. another state maybe, but not another country.

But I do have issues with some things. Here in our schools we have the "No child left behind policy" which means that a class can only advance as fast as the slowest child. That's all hunky dory, except when that slowest child doesn't even speak English. Why should my child be held back because of someone else ignorance. I really don't care if it's a language thing or a math thing or a reading things. If someone isn't up to par, maybe they need "special" classes instead of holding an entire group back. Some immigrant children are so far behind they shouldn't be in regular classes. On the other side of the token some are so far advanced the same thing. I had, when I was teaching, a little Korean girl that should have been at least 2 grades advanced but the school was more worried about her age then her intelligence.

I don't care what people do in their own home. If they want to speak Arabic, Spanish, Mexican, pig Latin, that's their thing. But I don't like paying extra taxes so that my police force can go to Spanish classes or everything is printed in two languages. I'm not going to move to China and expect the government to print everything in English so I can order my egg rolls over easy. It just doesn't work that way. Now if a business wants to print their material in multi-language that's their thing. I don't care .. I'm not paying for that Smile

The job issue is another thing. I have mixed feelings on that. Because we are not only loosing jobs to people who will work for nothing, but we are also loosing them to countries that will produce product for next to nothing. Steel for example. China now has the same quality and in some cases better, but so much cheaper then domestic steel. Is it because our government interfere so much, organizations that have work contracts that demand too much from employers. I don't know, but we are not in the market and we are loosing jobs because of it. Utah is a right to work state. We don't have as many Unions as most states, and the ones we do have can not demand a company to hire only Union people. Because of this our wages are lower then the national average, but we have a low unemployment rate. Maybe in this case the job structure of the US needs to be revamped so foreign isn't cheaper then domestic. More stuff produced here means more jobs for everyone.

With laws, immigrants are included in our "hate" laws (I think these things are stupid anyway, but that's another debate:wink: ). So if you beat up someone that just came to this country vs. someone that was born here (weather you knew it or not) the sentences are harder on you. To me that's discrimination against the naturals here.

Now on a plus side. The number of 1 to 5 year immigrants (stats past 5 years is not kept as far as I know) in our area is lower then naturals on the welfare system. So they are coming here and working instead of just coming here and hopping onto welfare. That's a good thing.

I guess in the long run ... as long as I don't have to pay for the change or have it effect my family or my chances for advancement for a better life, change is good.
 
Tao_Man







PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:49 am Reply with quote

Don't even get me started on the "No child left behind" aka "Every child is screwed and the teachers are blamed"

Two of my grandfathers, one of my grandmothers, my mother, my sister and two of my ex-wifes all are/were teachers.
 
HauntedWebby







PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:03 am Reply with quote

Well I'll get you started on Friday's new subject Wink

side note: I'm planning on a new poll/question each Friday. Any ideas just PM me since I'll probably run out fast LOL
 
Raven
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Posts: 17088

PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:56 am Reply with quote

I will sum up my feelings and I do not mean to offend, although it might. This once great country of ours was founded by men/women of different race, religion, creed, etc. It is founded on Judeo-Christian principles and standards. Liberals (ACLU is right at the top) have perverted the Constitution to the point that this country is a sorry mess. Gay marriages (oxymoron) and other perverted lifestyles are threatening our children and our very existence. Spending our tax dollars on trying to be everything to everybody is sucking the life out of potential help for medical coverage for those that are legally entitled. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, ALL illegal immigrants should be sent home - period. They definitely should NOT be entitled to $.01 of any coverages. This is America. Love it or leave it. Evil or Very Mad
 
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HauntedWebby







PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:52 am Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
Liberals (ACLU is right at the top) have perverted the Constitution to the point that this country is a sorry mess.


Yes the ACLU are morons. But they are morons on both sides of the Liberal scale. I'm not a card carrying member of them (I have better things to waste my money on), but I've used there services twice. So they can do good every now and then. With the ACLU it's a classic case of power going to the head and going terribly wrong. It wasn't until they started to piss everyone off that their membership profits started to soar. Rolling Eyes

Anyway, back to the subject. Smile I agree with you that illegal immigrants shouldn't be given the time of day or anything else. It's pretty easy to immigrate legally. But when they do immigrate legally should we, as a country, have to bend over backwards and change hundreds of years of the way things are done for the new guy on the block? We didn't change for the German, Italian, Polish, or other countries. They all speak English, and their own language (in most cases). They still have their traditions, but didn't force it on the whole nation. After some time passes, we adopted their traditions as our own naturally.

This was sent to me via email. Typical email spam junk mail, but for some reason I opened it.

> This is an editorial written by American citizen, published in a
> Tampa newspaper He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please!
>
> IMMIGRANTS,
> NOT AMERICANS,
> MUST ADAPT.
> I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we
> are offending some individual or their culture. Since the
> terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge
> in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from
the attacks had
> barely settled when the "politically correct! " crowd began
> complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending
others.
>
> I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against
> anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our
population is
> almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there
> are a few things that those who have recently come to
> our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.
> This idea of America being a multicultural community
> has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national
> identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our
> own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture
> has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and
victories by
> millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
>
>
> We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese,
> Japanese, Russian, or any other language.
> Therefore, if you wish to become part
> of our society, learn the language!
>
> "In God We Trust" is our national motto This is not some
> Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto
because
> Christian men and women,
> on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly
> documented.

> It is certainly appropriate to display it
> on the walls of our schools. If God
> offends you, then I suggest you
> consider another part of the world as
> your new home, because God is part
> of our culture.
>
> If Stars and Stripes offend you, or
> you don't like Uncle Sam, then you
> should seriously consider a move
> to another part of this planet. We
> are happy with our culture and have
> no desire to change, and we really
> don't care how you did things where
> you came from. This is
> OUR COUNTRY,
> our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every
> citizen the right to express his opinion and we
> will allow you every opportunity to do
> so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about
> our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our
> way of life, I highly encourage you
> take advantage of one other great American freedom,
> THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

Pretty strong words ... but it pretty much sums it up for me Smile
 
Raven







PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:56 am Reply with quote

I received that too from a trusted source. I can only say - AMEN!!!
 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:56 pm Reply with quote

I'm not quite sure how to answer this, living in the UK. I could risk being branded as a racist, which I definately am not, I believe all people equal.

However, I truly believe we got it seriously wrong in the UK, I don't know anything of how it is in other countries.

For one thing the UK is too small an island to keep taking thousands of people in each month. Our housing is terrible. The unemployment is terrible.

What fuels a lot of trouble over here is that one someone comes into the UK they immediately get a free house, each member of their family receives £14,000 a year, each member of the family that is of working age goes straight onto State Benefits, our telephone company here installs a telephone for each family free of charge, plus they get free calls because our Govt thinks they should keep in contact with their families in their country of origin. If they can't drive they get driving lessons paid for by the State and once they pass their driving test they are given a brand new Nissan car (sometimes other makes but Nissan seem to have the main contract).

They are allowed to build their own temples/mosques/churchs and close streets off for religious festivals.

They are all grouped together in ghettos and housing estates as the Govt thinks it's better for them to settle in surrounded by other immigrants.

UK residents get none of these priviliges or hand outs.

Young people who were born here and work hard cant afford a house and sometime even a flat. Many of them are unemployed, and most of them can't afford a car. Quite a lot of young people here are either not educated and have no qualifications, or leave school to live homeless and on drugs.

If an immigrant goes for a job, the company has to employ them against a UK resident, or they get sued for racial discrimmination (whatever colour they are).

All this causes unrest amongst the UK residents. It causes suspicion, jealousy, and hatred. Not against individuals or immigrant groups, but against our Government. Although after a few years it has turned some of the youngsters into thugs who then pick on the immigrant families. And a fued between gangs start.

This becomes labelled as racism, it's not racism, it's the plain fact that immigrants are treated much better than anyone else in the country instead of 'the same as' and people are getting fed up with it.

So really what I think is: No - if they want to move here they should know how we do things.

It's different in the States as you have said. America was made great back in history by pioneers and great people of all colours and creeds, and now because they got it right to begin with everyone is equal (or should be).

In the UK, we got it all wrong. We should have gone down the same road as America, instead we had different classes, the upper class looking down on the lower and middle class, education was by class status.

We can't shake the class system, and those in the middle and lower classes are now discriminated against in favour of immigrants, because of the politically correct society the UK has now. This is causing more trouble and problems than most people realise.

I don't know the answer.

Believe me I'm not racist. I have nothing against immigrants, but I have everything against our Governments who cannot see further than their own noses when trying to cram as many people into such a small island and expect us all to get along .

Oh dear reading thru this it makes me sound like a Nazi, but really I'm not. I'd just like to see our govt get it right, so everyone who lives here can get along in peace together with equal opportunities, and all the jealousy and envy is a thing of the past.

Sorry rant over lol

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minx
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:21 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
What fuels a lot of trouble over here is that one someone comes into the UK they immediately get a free house, each member of their family receives £14,000 a year, each member of the family that is of working age goes straight onto State Benefits, our telephone company here installs a telephone for each family free of charge, plus they get free calls because our Govt thinks they should keep in contact with their families in their country of origin. If they can't drive they get driving lessons paid for by the State and once they pass their driving test they are given a brand new Nissan car (sometimes other makes but Nissan seem to have the main contract).

They are allowed to build their own temples/mosques/churchs and close streets off for religious festivals.

They are all grouped together in ghettos and housing estates as the Govt thinks it's better for them to settle in surrounded by other immigrants.

UK residents get none of these priviliges or hand outs.


I'm sorry but the information given above is total nonsense.

If everyone gets free houses Muffin, can you explain why there are hostels etc for Asylum Seekers to live in?

Lol please do provide a link to the fact that each person gets £14.000...I've read some total crap re AS but that does beat them all.

Free phones and phone calls for every AS, again that is total nonsense...please provide links verifying your delusional claims.


AS do NOT get free driving lessons or cars supplied by the state..that is a complete fabrication...again I request a link showing proof of this.


And no you dont sound like a nazi to me Muffun, you sound like someone who has been forcefed utter tripe and actually believes it.
 
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Raven







PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:27 pm Reply with quote

Just a word of caution here before the HitsFan

I invited minx (and others from her site) to comment because she's always so passive with her opinions ROTFL Seriously, I like a good debate and thought a little passion would help this one, especially since it involves Brit's. Remember: debate and be passionate about the issues or else Smack

Get ready, I see DTR is online Laughing
 
defendtherealm
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Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:34 pm Reply with quote

Thanks for the invite Raven.

I'm as ring wing and as anti mass immigration as they come. But sorry, I think a lot of what muffin has posted is not actually true.

The telephone company giving asylum seekers free phone calls is a new one one me.

Muffin. Please can you find some sources to back up these claims.

Yes people in the UK are tired of health tourists sponging of our free system, but I do believe the government is addressing that.

Yes there are issues the native UK population is concerned about, however muffin isn't helping matters by throwing in some very tall claims with no data or urls to back those claims up with.
 
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Muffin







PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:41 pm Reply with quote

I can't post links tonight, as the person who gave me this information, who works in Government and another one who works for immigration and deals with the social services and housing departments for AS are not online.

But I will post the links here for you all to see.

If people in the UK knew exactly what goes on they'd be amazed.

I also know a person who works in a Nissan garage that hands out the cars weekly to AS and they're Social Services escort and translater if one is required.

I'm not in the habit of posting things that are not true.

If I can get the links to prove all that I posted to you then I will.

And no offence taken by your attitude, if you don't know the facts, then to anyone who is sane it would seem far fetched, but I'm afraid it's true.

I have friends in a lot of government departments and I was told this by those friends. What would they gain by telling me lies? They would lose more than they gain, and that would be my friendship.

*edit*

REgarding the hostels that AS are put into, they are only temporary until local council housing is available. Or one of the large housing estates that are going up around the country solely to house AS are completed.
 
minx







PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:51 pm Reply with quote

Muffin I too know people who work in garages and in government, and I think you will find that some people have an agenda thus tell lies.

Can I also ask you to provide proof of even just three housing estates that are going up solely to house AS?

I'm sure you wont need a friend to verify that...that would definitely make the press...you cant hide housing estates.

As for the car stories...they have been doing the rounds for at least 5 years and I've yet to see actual verification.

You and your friend at the Nissan garage are sitting on some story there...it's your civic duty to provide this proof...I expect the sun or mail will be really interested.
 
defendtherealm







PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:53 pm Reply with quote

Fine get the links then. There are plenty of "rumours" going around. I'm against mass-immigration but I don't want the credibility of my cause damaged.

Muffin, have you ever heard of the term "Chinese Whispers"?

I'm sure you have.......
 
HauntedWebby







PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:42 pm Reply with quote

WAhoo ... new people are here Smile

Muffin wrote:
I'm not quite sure how to answer this, living in the UK. I could risk being branded as a racist, which I definitely am not, I believe all people equal.


Muffin, anytime you talk about another person, someone will assume you are making racist statement. That's human nature. It seems we've been hard coded to beleive that if you're talking about someone, you must be saying something mean. Just state what's on your mind. True racist you can't talk to, they are always right no matter what your tell them or show them. They will show their true colors while trying to hide it.

defendtherealm wrote:
Yes people in the UK are tired of health tourists sponging of our free system, but I do believe the government is addressing that.


We have them also. Anytime you have something that is free people will take advantage of it.

minx wrote:
Muffin I too know people who work in garages and in government, and I think you will find that some people have an agenda thus tell lies.


Doesn't everyone. Even non-government people want to persuade people to agree with them. Jobs, Family, Self you are always to make things go your way. Again, something that is human nature Smile

Now I don't know much about British politics. CNN and the rumor mill is all the information I have. Rumor or not ... I've heard about the phone thing. It will be interesting to hear if it's true or not. Wink
 
Muffin







PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:04 pm Reply with quote

I'm not sure I will be able to post links to the benefits or large cash sums that AS get, as my friend would probably get fired for giving away information, but I will ask my friend who posts on my board that worked for Nissan up til last month if he will come here and post that he did see AS and their social workers arrive to collect new cars, I can't do better than that.

Coventry Council gave free driving lessons to AS, I have posted a link below, and now several other councils here have followed suit.

My friends who have told me these things have signed the official secrets act, so actually they shouldn't have told me anything at all, and I certainly shouldnt have repeated them, but they are so outrageous that I dont think they should be kept secret..

Anyway here are a couple of links so that you can see that the driving lessons is true, and some of the other things I've mentioned.

I'm just repeating what I've been told by my friends who are disgusted that this goes on behind our backs by people we have voted into Government.
[ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ]
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I'm particularly disgusted by the article on the free BUPA health clinics being set up solely for AS. When many Britons are suffering and waiting not only for long awaited surgery, and in some cases a matter of life and death, but also just to see their doctors with every day illnesses.

My friend who worked for Nissan has no agenda, he is not racist, owns his own car and lives in a nice house here. He's just angry that this goes on and that we don't get the same priviliges.
 
defendtherealm







PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:06 pm Reply with quote

The Coventry council scheme was dropped. Also the Coventry council scheme was open to a lot more people than asylum seekers. I didn't agree with the CC scheme, but it was NOT exclusive to asylum seekers.....you just had to be extremely poor.

In any case, I will be voting Tory at the next general election. I've had enough of New Labour.
 
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