Extremes

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:50 am

I recently heard on the news (2 days ago) of a faith healer that was trying to heal a young boy. The boy was Autistic<spl?) and the "Healer" was going to cast out the demons in this boy. Well, he held him hand over the boys mouth until he died!

Crazy Fool!

Many people are caught in the trap of running to extremes. God's will has been revealed and needs to be understood the way God intended it to be.

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

Did you ever notice that these so called faith healers only seem to be able to do their falsehoods on tv or in front of audiences? How sad to pervert the Word of God this way. If they truly had the power (Gift) of healing, then they would walk the streets of the world, the hospitals, etc. and heal the scriptual way - by the power of the God through the Holy Spirit. When Jesus healed he simply commanded. "Pick up your bed and walk" and the man who had been crippled from birth not only stood up, he jumped up and ran and danced!

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:14 pm

That was truely a sad story. God does not always answer our prayers the way we want Him too. Manipulation is not a viable solution.

I had a cousin with severe asthma that prayed for healing with all his heart. He died on Sept 21st 1991 at the age of 17. Did God heal him? I think He did but not in the way we wanted. God works that way sometimes.

God does still heal today but it is according to His sovereignty. One time I went to a 'healing explosion'. The man there claimed that God gave him the gift of healing and he (the man) now possed this power on his own. I asked him if he healed someone if God did it through him or if he did it of his own power because he had the gift. His answer was it was his own power. He is an example of what was talked about in Matt 7:22 & 23.

Quote:

22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

These people did perform miricles and cast out demons. The problem is they never 'knew' christ. They were too busy looking for the hand of God and not seeking his face. God's hand is amazing and He can and will do wonders on many levels. He also wants us to seek his face. To have a relationship with him.

Court Jester Joined: Sep 20, 2003 Posts: 106

i do not believe in a god.

I veiw that god was created by man. And the more man belives the more real to man he becomes. And with that it is man making the mircals, not god. But so much is atributed to god, and so much of the opposite isnt.

To veiw god as the creator means he is good, and evil. He made the trees, the bees, the whales, the snails. He made the small parasites that make small children go blind, the bacteria that causes harm. He made Aids, Cholora, and all other diseases in that sense.

If you look at what happens, in a literal sense, if he was real the story is rather odd. a completely Pure Good God wouldnt torment our puny lives. Hurricanes tornadoes and the likes. sure it can be called challanges, but, why would he want to do that? its sadistic in a way. When people say god makes no mistakes, it confuses me more, because either lucifer was a mistake, or he is lucifer. Good and Evil.

So, i will crawl back into my comfort zone of science and my own relegion of man, and capitalistic conservatism.

But before i do. I believe it is mans right to modify his surroundings, and himself. It is mans right to be god. If god can create all as they say, and we were made in his likeness, then we can create i say. Its a fundamental right of all man, be he religious or not. If he can modify the genetics of creaturs and create what he wants, let him. If he wants to live forever with science, let him. If he wants to be immortalized in a machine, let him. If he wants blue hair, 3 arms, and a tail, let him. As long as he does it to himself, or his own cells.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:46 pm

I can offer nothing up to this response, save for my own testimony of conversion. For 29 years I lived a life that I thought I was the center of. I was an agnostic and could debate a believer to tears, in my ignorance. I am not proud of it now, but I was then Sad

. Eventually as I began to posses things and stuff and promotions and all things precious to the heart of a natural, non believing man, I noticed that I was still feeling a void that I could not explain. Even though being an agnostic, I would read, listen, and watch as much as I could of 'professing' believers to catch them in a stumble or a contradiction. Oh I was good at that. Questioning how a God could allow this or that, etc. Then, while watching Jesus of Nazareth at Easter time in 1979, I heard one of the clearest presentations of the Gospel that I had ever heard. Was I 'converted' at that time? Of course not, but I felt a moving in my heart and soul that caused me to wonder if maybe I had been searching for Love in all the wrong places [sic]. I then decided to see if Hollywood was perverting for sensationalism or if this was in the Bible.

Knowing nothing at all about versions of the Bible, I started doing research and discovered that the most reliable human translation of the Scriptures was probably the King James Version. So, I bought myself one. I started reading the New Testament and couldn't stop. The more I read, the more I wanted to read and know. But to know what? I still couldn't understand it. I am a very logical, systems analyst type personality (no surprise) and I needed proof, or so I thought. I realize that God was reaching out to me through my love of logic. I came to realize that the proof of a Real God and Real Savior is all around us. In nature, in a mother's womb, in the changed lives of those who believe!

Well, a few weeks went by and I continued searching and asking and searching and exploring until, one Sunday morning I was surfing through the 'religious' programs and I happened to stop on a channel that the church was singing

"I heard an old, old story, how a Savior came from glory. How He gave His life on Calvary, to save a wretch like me.". Now I am also a musician, and God was now reaching to me through music! Well, during that broadcast I heard the sweet sweet story of the Gospel and at the end of the broadcast the Pastor asked of his audience who might be touched and moved to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior? I am not ashamed to tell you that tears were in my eyes as I finally realized the love of a Real God and Savior that my eyes could not see; My ears could not hear; and my hands could not touch. But let me assure you of this one thing. Jesus Christ is as real to me today as He was to satan in the day of Creation. And just as sure as satan will one day be bound to the fires of all mighty Hell, so will every person that does not come to the saving grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God does not impose Himself on us, nor did he cause the 911 tragedy, nor the hurricanes and tornadoes and rapes and murders, etc. These are acts that result from the sin that lucifer (satan) introduced to man, through Adam. God allows man and nature to have a free will. But his patience is not w/o limits. The clock is running down for those that do not believe. He gives time to all to come to Him. We all have a choice to make, don't we?

I know not whether I have helped or hindered your quest for the truth. I pray that I have, through my own personal testimony and experience, maybe given you something to think about. I mean you no disrespect nor harm. I just want you to know that there are many who will try to tell you miracles that man can do. There are organized man made religions. I trusted in none of these. I trusted first in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin. Do I still sin? Unfortunately yes. But, the joy is in knowing that in spite of that, Jesus still loves me and forgives me! Then, I set out to learn as much as I possibly could during this short life on earth. Do I want to die? Of course not! But I no longer am afraid to die. Do not trust in man! He will let you down. He will fail.

I close with this. Keep an open heart, an open mind. Real changes take place in the hearts and souls of men and women who want to know the truth and seek it out. One last thought.

If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. If you are, well, you can answer that. Take care my friend!

Client Joined: Jul 18, 2003 Posts: 977

This is something I wrote for another forums so please forgive the impersonal feel but it states at least a few of the things I think...

There is a God. There is only one God. He is the almighty God. I say He because God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. The Holy Trinity. Jesus was the Son of God and he was male therefore I believe God is “male”. The subject of the Trinity is a difficult one to say the least because they were all one but then again they were separate. You could have God without the other two but you cannot have the other two without God. Jesus was God incarnate, the Word of God but he was not fully God. He is the light the truth and the way. God knew the Old Testament wasn’t working so He gave us something we could see and touch. You cannot know God the Father without knowing Jesus. “He that believes with his heart and confesses with his mouth that Jesus Christ died on the cross for their sins shall have everlasting life.” He died on the cross specifically for your sins. If you were the only one on the earth he still would have died on the cross for you. If it seems a bit to harsh I am sorry but it is the truth. I myself cannot prove it to you, nor can anyone else. So there is no need to ask anyone to prove it. If you want to know the truth… read the Bible. People say they have read the Bible and that is fine. I have no choice but to believe them. But it is important that you read it all and try to absorb what it is telling you. Just like you would when you read a textbook or an informational handout or a magazine on your favorite hobby. Try to learn something from it. Take something away from it. If after all that you still don’t believe it, then… “Let those who have eyes see and those that have ears hear.”
Let me ask you this question about the universe at how it was created. Do you believe that it is a complicated thing, the universe? Do you believe it is more complicated than an old pocket watch? You know the kind that it is on a chain and was slipped into the vest pocket in the old days? Do you think the universe is more complicated than that? I do. I mean the orbit around the sun, if it was off just a bit we would freeze or we would burn into a cinder. That is precise. So yes, the universe in all its size and function is more complicated than a pocket watch. With that said, do you think that all the components of a pocket watch could roll and blow down a street and all of a sudden form a watch that is infinitely less complicated than the universe? No, it had to be made by someone in order for it to function. We can even go less complicated than that. A pencil? Wood, graphite, and rubber. With a little metal thrown in also. Could a pencil magically form? No. Neither could the universe. And Darwin? He himself said that his book was not based on fact but just a theory. There is no proof for what he wrote. Doctor’s and scientists have shied away from the idea of a missing link because it doesn’t fit anymore. Science, these days, is proving more and more creationism. Don’t take my word for it do some research of your own. Don’t form an opinion based on what someone else says or what you have heard, read it for yourself. Thanks for reading. God the father loves questions because you know what? The answers if sought truthfully and allowed to be heard always lead to Him.

Worker Joined: Sep 09, 2003 Posts: 165

Anubis

I am sorry you heart has been hardened by science and technology, and yes there is a GOD and i will beleive that till the day he takes me to him.

GOD created the earth and all its inhabitants and when he cast out lucifer and down to the earth to rule the human kingdom and do what he will. This is when all the disease and trajedies happened to this world. Then he gave us his only son JESUS. This man was the one who died to purify us and forgive us of our sins. He was raised from the dead and to rule by his fathers side.

When JESUS comes back to earth to reclaim it I will be one with many that will be happy to say that I am with GOD and his son JESUS.

You may have you opinions and science may be able to show some of the background of the information that you are given. But let me ask you this, how is a book that was written thousands of years before we were even to have the knowledge of writing and speach looked upon as the truth to how the world was formed.

And when the President of the United States is sworn in or if you testify in court dont you swear on a Bible. Doesnt our money here in the USA say on the back IN GOD WE TRUST.

I am sorry that your heart has hardened to the evidence that you beleive that science who cannot explain a billion things and the Bible can will not persuade you to even take a chance to test it and see if that is the truth.

Please i encourage you to at least try and see what I am talking about.

If you dont own a Bible, there is always one at the push of a few keystrokes www.bible.com

I am a Christian and will always have faith in GOD and Jesus the Christ.
I await your response
Thanks
Fury

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:59 am

Annubis,
Your post reads like my heart from years ago. I returned from VietNam with an empty soul, or no soul, and I, too, was convinced that man had created God, and organized religion was but a huge scam.

But I read a very short book, by a very intelligent man, C.S. Lewis, and he opened my eyes to my ignorance. The book is called 'Mere Christianity' and Mr. Lewis spoke in very simple terms that were too simple for an ignoramous like me to contradict. He spoke to the rational man within me and used the power of logic to show me how there can be no doubt as to whether there is a God, and what His nature is.

I would recommend that you read his book, it helped me to see how wretched I was, and changed my perspective of what the Bible, and specifically the New Testament, was offering me. Christ Himself cured my delayed stress, and calmed my rage at man's inhumanity to man, and also showed me that religion is not about anything more than my relationship to God almighty.

Wouldn't you like to have a personal loving relationship with the Creator of it all?

Regular Joined: Jan 27, 2004 Posts: 65

While wandering among the various forums, I was suprised & pleazed 2 C 1 as this. I traverse many Bulletin Boards across many subjects & haven't come across 1 like this yet. It's most refreshing & am impressed. Definately some very good things here.

I felt compelled 2 post a response in this, the oldest thread in the forum, 4 1x reason: I was intrigued how U (Raven) claimed 2 B an agnostic B4 U got saved.

I agree very much w/ that statement B'ing that "U knew there was 'a god,' yet refused 2 acknowledge/believe/trust in Him. The intriguing part, I suppose, is the fact that U admitted that 'yeah, there's a god' as a nonChristian.

The whole reason 4 this post is that I've met all 2 many who claim 2 B an athiest, denying overwhelmingly outright that there is no God. It takes a tremendous amount of tender effort sometimes 2 help some1 get past the stage of outright denial 2 listening 2 what they really do feel inside. Of all those I've met who claim 2 B an athiest, I can only think of 2x off the top of my head that really were... as most were really agnostic.

I'm not sure if it's Bcause they all don't realize the definition of the word, denial, or what. Usually my speaking w/ them on the subject 1st begins w/ the definition of an agnostic vs an athiest & how they truly feel & go on from there.

Did U call yourself an agnostic @ that time, or just now in hindsite?

Just an interesting observation of your very good testimony Smile

P.S.
Even Lucifer Blieves in God's existence. Just a thought.

> TheShniz

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:18 am

Quote:

Did U call yourself an agnostic @ that time, or just now in hindsite?

Just an interesting observation of your very good testimony

P.S.
Even Lucifer believes in God's existence. Just a thought.

I most definitely knew the word after an encounter with 2 Lutheran women (a whole nother story), even at 12 years old - I actually, in my youthful ignorance, bragged about it and challenged Christians (adults and peers) with my 'knowledge'. But, I was not aware until many years later that I was even more accountable for that knowledge! Roman's clearly tells us that we are all born with an inate knowledge of God. We choose, at one point or another to accept or discard this knowledge and permanently condemn ourselves. Of course Lucifer not only believes, he now knows even more than ever, since he could not stop Christ from rising and as predicted in Genesis that Christ would receive a "heal" wound but Satan a "head" wound.

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:52 am

Quote:

we are all born with an inate knowledge of God

That's definately true and is further evidenced in nature.

U know, I just can't help but B even more thankful 4 growing in a Christian home w/ 2x Godly parents. Parents really do help shape the lives of their children, albeit accepting Christ as saviour is still an individual's own decision. It's truly a blessing. Similarly, whenever U hear a good testimony outside of the "I grew up in a Christian home," which in itself is Xcellent, it's really powerful in sharing it w/ others. eg.) A saved drunkard has a great opportunity 2 witness 2 alcoholics. Thanx again 4 your testimony Very Happy

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:01 am

Yours too! Billy Sunday comes to mind doesn't he?

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:57 pm

That's true... thankfully no more sawdust in stadiums w/ Billy Graham Cool

:: edited ::

It'll B a sad day 4 the world when he goes on, as that day is quickly approaching for him. His son is also a godly man, but I'm not sure the world will C such good evangelism until the rapture & God's witnesses arrive... which is ever-so-rapidly approaching. I fear 4 my 5 month old son, and will B most relieved and joyful when he's of age 2 B able 2 make his own decision. Time is severely against the world atm, it is running out.

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:19 pm

Ah, but children are saved by Grace should they die w/o having reached the time of accountability, which only God knows Wink

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:04 pm

Yes, I totally agree, and am not worried about his present, rather his future. I'm referring 2 2x seperate times I suppose: 1.) once he does reach the age of accountability, and the time he needs/takes 2 make a decision, AND 2.) I do not Xpect him 2 die...

Lemme Xplain: After C'ing the world progress in the short time I've lived, I can't C this world going too much further... @least not @ the exponential rate that it's deteriorating. We've C'n & Xperienced many things, & will C many things... things that prev generations haven't C'n. I can C the rapture not coming during my lifetime if the Lord so chooses, but I have a hard time C'ing it progress past my son's. He's going 2 C things that we've never C'n, and if he Xperiences the rapture... exponentially worse things (albeit not even a drop in the bucket compared 2 the tribulation or end days after rapture).

Life is hard, and our kids have got a rough 1 ahead of them. I can only smile & enjoy their innocence.

Of everything I've read of the end times, I don't C the United States... only God knows. I C the "war on terror" and other current world events as the "potential" beginning of the end. I say potential, Bcause I am not God and don't know what the future holds. It is inevitable.

P.S.
We may deal w/ 2day, but the day will come that they will belong 2 our kids. Having a bit of nostalgia... my wiffle & I R still in the family building stage I guess U could say. My son Gabriel is our 1st. The funny part of it is, every name we think of has angelic references, lol. I want twin girls Very Happy

Sorry, I digress... ahhhh, nostalgia Smile

- J

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:28 pm

We have 6 grand children and as we look at the younger ones, at their innocense, some times I am overwhelmed with emotion, as you, trying to picture how the world will be for them. But, there have always been wars and rumors of wars, etc. Would that we could give our lives for them to remain innocent! When I read of the gross abuse that little children suffer; a 2 year old that finally dies and they discover that since 6 months old the poor little one has suffered so badly! The guilty will be in the hottest depths of Hell for all eternity; the children in the arms of Jesus, will have their reward. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:28 pm

Quote:

there have always been wars and rumors of wars

Well put, can always use perspective Smile

Soon, there is coming a war that will end all wars. God is just and will punish & reward those just as they should, infinitely more so than Dante could ever imagine Wink

P.S.
Me thinx it'll def hit the fan HitsFan

> TheShniz

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:11 pm

But thankfully we will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, both the living (in Christ) and the dead at the Rapture, 7 years of Tribulation to follow before the great war and then, the Great White Throne Judgement. And the books will be opened and another book which is the Lambs Book of Life. My name was written on 4/10/1979 in indelible ink, the Blood of Christ! And my room is being prepared, even now, in this City to come ----

"There's a City that looks o'er the valley of death.
And its Glory has never been told ....
Where the Lamb is the Light in the midst of the night.
In that Beautiful City of Gold."

"If I leave this world of sorrow,
Some time before you do.
Just look for me in Heaven,
And we'll talk the long ages through.

If at first, you fail to see me,
Let me tell you where I'll be.
I'll be thanking Christ, my Saviour.
For saving a wretch like me.

Don't look, 'neath the gates of pearl.
Don't look, on the streets of gold.
Don't look, by the walls of jasper.
Or among, the many sights untold --

For I've been longing and I've been waiting,
For the Precious, Holy One, to meet.
There I'll be through the countless ages,
Look for me, at Jesus feet"

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:23 am

Very true, I pitty the world that Xperiences it... I was born the 1st time 3/21/1979, lol.

Client Joined: Apr 10, 2004 Posts: 649 Location: UK

Although the majority of healers are false and cannot heal, there are a few who can.

They don't advertise their gift, and they dont want thanks or money for their healing. They tell you that it is the Lord Jesus working through them, which it is.
In my opinion of healers that I have met, the genuine ones, Jesus is working His power of healing through them, and it is Him that we should thank.

My mother had shingles really bad one time, the Doctor had told her that it would have to run it's course and there was nothing he could do to help other than prescribe some cream.

She was in so much discomfort, after speaking to a friend we went to a healer lady. The gift had been handed down from mother to daughter/son for generations. She told us before she did anything that we must not thank her, as it was the Lord that was using her as his tool.

She picked some herbs from her garden, placed them in a container and sprinkled them with water as she spoke words from the Bible, then when she had finished she reminded us again not to thank her.

We went home, and laughed actually about it, saying that we must have been mad to go to her in the first place, and thought no more of it for the rest of the day.

The following morning my mother was totally fit and well. All spots and scars had gone and she had no trace of shingles on her body at all. We both prayed and thanked the Lord.

On another occasion I'd had a bad back injury and was confined to my bed for weeks and weeks, unable even to lift a leg or arm. My Uncle who is a lay preacher sent me a book written by an Australian preacher about self healing.

Well I was bored out of my brain having been stuck in bed for so long, so I read it. I read it in a day, it wasn't that long a book. It told how to ask Jesus for help and how to heal ourselves.

The next morning without thinking I just got out of bed normally, no pain, no twinges, nothing. When I rang my Doctor he was amazed I was out of bed.

The Lord had healed me, and I knew it was because I'd been told how to ask Him and how to use the power I believe we all have within us given to us by God to heal ourselves.

Now I'm not saying we ourselves, or genuine healers can heal things like Cancer, but I do believe there are genuine healers and that we have the power within us, given to us by God.

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:40 am

The gift of healing as explained in the New testament, was one of the gifts that were given for that time only. There were several gifts that are termed 'temporary'. Healing is one of those and no longer exists today. God heals alone and no longer requires man to be his intermediary, if you will.

Quote:

Gift of Healing Began to Fade During Paul's Earthly Ministry

When Paul was writing to Timothy he advised him on his health. "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1 Tim. 5:23). Why didn't Paul just heal Timothy? Timothy had enough problems without having stomach problems. Why didn't Paul just use his gift of healing instead of giving him some advice on how to help the problem?

In 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul had to leave Trophimus behind at Miletus because Trophimus was so sick. Why didn't Paul, who had raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:10), just heal Trophimus? The only explanation seems to be that this ministry -- this particular gift of healing -- is being phased out, because in 2 Timothy, Paul is close to the end of his ministry. It was no longer necessary to validate Paul's ministry by the miraculous -- Paul's writings were beginning to be recognized as Scripture (2 Pet. 3:15 16).

Philippians 2:27 gives another example where Paul does not (cannot) heal a fellow Christian, "For indeed he (Epaphroditus) was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow." That is strange as you think of Paul's power as a miracle worker in the earlier part of his ministry.

This is from an excellent summation of spiritual gifts [ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ]

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:00 am

Those R some good refrences Rav... I agree that God no longer gives the gift 2 heal. It was a tool Jesus used in His own time 2 show that He is god, now we have the Bible & R no longer required.

> TheShniz

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:58 pm

Quote:

This is from an excellent summation of spiritual gifts [ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ]

Raven, do you know this person?

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:03 pm

No. I had come across it and I haven't read it in a while. Why? Is there a problem?

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:16 pm

Well, I have been reading a lot of other things he has written and he just seems so focused on all the negative things. I just feel, overall, he is just looking for things to attack in most of his writings.

I sure don't agree with his view of gifts and will be posting about that once I get my thoughts together.

He has a big thing written about the WWJD movement and how evil it is. Attacking Carman for making money on WWJD items and how horrible that is. I have been to several Carman concerts over the years and watched as hundreds of teens have gotten saved.

The guy is just looking for a fight.

I have just found that people who are on the attack all the time only serve to devide the church more.

In all his writings I have yet to find the gospel.

He just comes across as religeous to me. I know, cuz I used to be there.