Many Thanks To Burnwave!!!

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

This says it all! And thanks to FoxyFemFem for seeking the TRUTH!

[Edit by Admin: Link removed since it has been deleted]

Hangin' Around Joined: Nov 27, 2003 Posts: 37

I have watched all that unfold over at NC and all I can say is thank goodness for the "Perry Masons" of this world. Way to go Burnwave!!. Wink

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:49 pm

*Trogar over at NC*

Yes thanks Burnwave, it was quite sickening to see NC Admin's launch clear attacks at Sentinel. NC was once a place that I sort of looked up to, along with other sites like this one, as places to get good direction and impartial information about PHPNuke and the numerouse add-ons and blocks that are available for this open source portal solution. It is sad to see how some people are willing to hang unjustified accusations on something without taking the time to make sure they have the full facts before opening their mouths.

I have already posted my thoughts on their childish actions on NC, and am less inclined to go back into their forums for much of anyting at this point in time. I might consider using their download area for add-ons or blocks that I am unable to find elsewhere, but at the moment I have a bad taste in my mouth where NC is concerned. As I have posted before here on this site, I am not one to post much. I help out where I can, but am still learning PHP so am not much help. I just don't understand how supposed "leaders" can post the things that I seen in the NC posts.

Anyways, without further babble, time to just let it go. Thanks for the well thought out posts over at NC to show people the error of NC's ways, their admins, and their leaders unresearched and obvious self centered posts. Glad to see that hopefully, the wide readership at NC will read the posts and be able to come to their own EDUCATED conclusions as to what Sentinel is, does, and what the limitations are.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:15 am

whiteknight0571 wrote:

*Trogar over at NC*

Not quite.. As you know it took off again today but anyways.. Someone seems to be launching a personal attack on me!

They are delete happy.. Im waiting to see who it was, ZX only wanted to know what really i thought of his prodcts so i told him.. and someone deleted it.

My only guess is Daniel Evil or Very Mad

Regular Joined: May 31, 2004 Posts: 95 Location: NY

You're welcome.

Client Joined: Apr 10, 2004 Posts: 649 Location: UK

The whole topic has been deleted now it seems.

I didnt bother going over the to look til that link was posted, now I've missed it lol

That's one site I won't be going back to again. I like it here too much, everyone's so friendly (well most of them Rolling Eyes

) and the support is great.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:01 pm

I asked them to delete it. They promised that when I proved the issue not relating to Sentine, they would remove it, to not alarm the visitors to the topic name.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:12 pm

Well, it's still going on over there.
[ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ] edited to fit the change after server/host update

This is my last post over there. If they don't get it after this, I give up.

Quote:

OK, I REALLY should just ban NC and get on with life, but since MOST people want to downplay this, let’s look at the REALITY of what has really happened here with all the bashing over the past couple days, and what it could or HAS already caused for the potential life of a decent add-on to protect the community.

First, let’s start with the IRRESPONSIBLE posting started by the WEBMASTER and SUPPOSED leader of this organization here at NC. Throughout his posts, of which there were NUMEROUS, it was VERY plain to see that he was NOT being very IMPARTIAL, nor did he do his RESEARCH before raising an un-needed alarm to the community. MANY of the NC admin’s jumped on his bandwagon fanning this flame to the bondfire that it became, while the opponent designers seemed to make relatively straight forward and decent posts, NC and their “leader” continued to bash a GOOD ad-on BEFORE doing much research into the ACTUALITIES of the whole situation.

OK, we ALL know how much of a readership that NC has. At ONE time, this was a GOOD place to come to for IMPARTIAL and straightforward help on almost ALL areas of PHPNuke. It has been stated in the posts that there is in excess of 70,000 hits a day here. That’s ALLOT of people coming through, and ALLOT of people that were INITIALLY MISLEAD to believe that there was a problem with Sentinel. That, in itself, has the ability to KILL ANY fledgling product or program that hits the market. The sad part is, if that Sentinel HAD been killed by this, it would have been killed WRONGLY, and an entire community would have been deprived of the added SECURITY that this ad-on provides.

OK, so Xhen wanted to WARN the community about it. It doesn’t take DOZENS of UNFOUNDED posts to WARN people. Lets get real here. He, and MANY of the NC staff beat this thing like a dead horse. And as ground was lost and Xhen was being proved wrong, he kept jumping back to supposed “moral” issues, issues which aren’t any of his business anyways, and are reserved ONLY for the individual PHPNuke site owners to decide.

Lets ADD the fact that NC is NOT an OFFICIAL posting area established by Sentinel developers either. So unless at least ONE of the NC admin’s picked this ad-on apart, NONE of NC knows exactly HOW this ad-on works, nor what it REALLY does. Being that fact, how can you JUMP to conclusions? I wonder if ANY of you have ever heard of investigative writing procedures? Ever heard of INVESTIGATING the heresay and discovering the TRUTH BEFORE posting blindly?

For you guys, I’m sure it’s easy to NOT think of things from this point either, but here goes, I’ll try to explain this next part, and hopefully it will make sense. The Sentinel developers don’t have the readership nor the traffic that NC does. How can they compete with the UNFOUNED BAD press they are getting from NC BUT to come over here and ATTEMPT to try and set the record straight? NC has the traffic and the readership, the developers don’t have the volume that NC has. To NC it might be no big deal, but the UNFOUNDED BAD press here for Sentinel could have caused visitors to BAN the Sentinel developers site. You want to talk about legal issues? How about SLANDER because of NC’s FAILURE to get the FACTS before posting blindly AND with their own SELF interests and motivations in mind. Don’t go trying to DENY that. I’ve spent HOURS reading all the childish bullsh$t that’s been posted over here on this, and MUCH of it by NC without them BOTHERING to INVESTIGATE the ad-on before crying wolf.

Now lets add the fact that so many posts have been DELETED. What about all those that didn’t get to see all of it, and now have the idea that Sentinel has problems, is a trojan, whatever? Would you be so quick to let THAT go if it was Fortress that was in the spotlight? I don’t think so. You TOO would be posting what you could to try to give people the WHOLE story, just as Chat and the other developers tried to do in here. I’ll agree that maybe some of them might not have done it in the best way either. But Chat, at least, posted with dignity, and as impartially as possible given the fact that part of HIS work was being TARGETED. Would ANY of you here at NC have acted any differently in the SAME situation?

To Daniel, there is no accusation of Xhen “trying” to give a product a bad name. It was PLAIN to see with his posting that he left his own emotions get in the way of the PROFESSIONALISM expected from a supposed “LEADER”. The moment he posted WITHOUT investigating things fully, he fulfilled his obligation to WARN the community, as I am POSITIVE that the amount of traffic through here spread the word around quite well. He could have left it go there, but chose not to. Instead of warning and then INVESTIGATING PROPERLY, Xhan fuled the fire and fanned it to the heights we witnessed. Xhen KNEW that there was bad blood there to begin with between himself, Chat, Raven, Bob, it’s all WELL documented throughout forum threads and community reading. Don’t try to DOWNPLAY Xhen’s part in this, because he was NOT by ANY means innocent. Also keep in mind Daniel, that each time ANY of you locks or deletes one of these posts, you are p$ssing people off that have an opinion about the thread. You are also DEPRIVING those individuals who are in search of the truth from being able to FIND it.

Being a leader myself, I expect people to look up to me for my professionalism, impartiality, and my need to dig for the truth. All this is done while maintaining my calm and sitting on my fingers or keeping my mouth shut until I have FOUNDED EVIDENCE to back up my claims. I might not be a PHPNuke community leader, but I have been in leadership positions, and am also a veteran of the Gulf War. I know what being a leader is all about. Xhen has DEFINITELY failed in those aspects. He violated every law there is, when it comes to fulfilling the role of a “leader”, in the recent days here at NC.

Bottom line is this. Xhen AND NC acted in the most UNPROFESSIONAL manner that I have ever seen on the internet OR the community over the past couple of days. What I seen here was NOT a leader, but a childish schoolboy worried about who was going to be more respected and revered, him or the developers of Sentinel.

I blame NONE of NC for trying to stick by him though, that’s what community does and is expected from those in a working relationship. But to charge into the posts BLINDLY, as some of you did, it just takes you down to HIS level. Let him answer for his mistakes on this, he knows he has made them, and he KNOWS that he has NOT done the investigative research to start the posts he did. In my opinion, the ONLY reason they were posted was to provide NEGATIVE press for Sentinel, and that showed through EACH of his posts. He got shaken because Fortress has been recently released also, and BOTH groups are via-ing for the upper hand on this. Personally, I will go with what protects my sites the best, without the security risks and exploits.

Personally I think it’s time to let people have their FINAL say on this, STOP locking the threads and taking away their RIGHT to free speech and posting their opinions, and then get back to life on all this. I think that Chat and Raven have acted respectably out of this. They have been somewhat impartial, and I’m sure they have bitten there tongues so hard to bleed, but THEY remained PROFESSIONAL. Xhen did NOT. Also note that I have NEVER seen such BASHING of another’s program on ANY other site as I have seen here from Xhen and NC. Come on NC, Admins, think about that a minute. Doesn’t THAT at least in it’s own seem WRONG to you? You had NO PROOF other than SUPPOSED reports, and FAILED to note that the DEVELOPERS had posted the false positive. Xhen STILL tried to use that to HIS advantage.

Learn from the mistake….do the INVESTIGATIVE research required to produce EVIDENCE before POSTING irresponsibly. MANY look up to you Xhen and the Admins at NC. You are OBLIGATED to make sure that your LEADERSHIP leads by example, and that what is posted is PROVABLE FACT. Don’t forget THAT part of your responsibility to the community.

Lock the topic, ban me, whatever. Hopefully maybe some of what I just have said might sink through and make some sense. If I get banned for that, oh well.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:03 pm

Did you see VinDSL's response?
Quote:
"They think if they keep shooting at us, we'll leave them alone," said Lt. Josey Sandoval, 24, the gunner in an M-113 armored personnel carrier. "They should know it's just the opposite. If they stop shooting, then we'll leave them alone."

If by shooting at us he means putting out a better product... I don't think the real shootings even started!

New Member Joined: Dec 07, 2003 Posts: 22 Location: USA

Wow! Somethings never cease to amaze me. When I read that statement by VinDSL I thought it was in referrings to the person saying he was a veteran. Just like the bible, we read it and interpret it to our own meanings to justify what we want to read, see or hear. Confused

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:46 pm

Maybe I took it out of context wouldn't be the first time.

Worker Joined: Aug 16, 2003 Posts: 107 Location: USA

Thanks Burnwave, keep up the good fight

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:21 pm

Kinda funny. The shooting, as he puts it, started BY NC and Xhen, NOT us here, nor Raven or Chat. I don't see where the point is there. Now, if it had been Raven or Chat going over there starting sh$t, then I could see his point. Doesn't matter. All the more reason it makes more sense for me to stay over here, and let them to their own self destruction. I don't think many of them get the concept of how badly they ended up destroying the image they once had with people simply because of their own self centered reasons for posting what was posted.

At this point, NC is down for maintenance, or I've been banned, so I haven't had the opportunity to read Vin's FULL reply or comment to what has been written. That being said, I'll just let it go. Maybe if I'd have the opportunity to read what he has written, it might make sense to me. That isn't the case at this point. Should I understand it, and be able to get into read it, then maybe I'll post a reply. At this point in time, none of them seem to get it, so no point in me trying to get them to understand it. They really have no idea what they've done as far as I am concerned. It is also realistic to believe, that out of 70,000 hits or more a day, there are going to be others that feel the same way as I do, and more that will now spend less time at their site.

If it was a ploy to get traffic, then they got it in the short term. In the long run, because of certain childish actions, they will be hurt more than they were elevated by the temporary results of their slander war. Like Raven's quote says, "Those that hear not the music, think the dancers insane" or mad, sorry to misquote you Raven Laughing

Point being, NC and MANY of the staff seem to NOT hear the music, so we are mad. That's OK though. They can have that world, I'll keep the one I have.

@ Foxy
Yes, I agree that everything is open to interpretation, and that each of us are our own unique individuals with our own wants and needs. All that must change though when you are looked up to as a leader. When people look up to you like that, then things need to be put to the side. At that point, honesty and truth need to win over, and that must be presented in a way that protects and informs all those that look up to you. NC and MANY of the staff have failed MISERABLY at that over the past couple days. And all for what? To settle a score they have with Chat, Raven, Bob and the rest of the Sentinel development team? I wonder if they are truely ready for what it COULD cost them in the end. Problem is, they left their emotions get the better of them, got hot headed, and screwed up. Doesn't matter. Isn't my site, isn't Chat, Raven, Bob, or any of the other developers sites. They'll pay for it in the end. What goes around comes around. It's a law of nature and human nature. None of us have to do ANYTHING for it to come back to them. They've already shot themselves in the foot enough times to cause their own damage. We'll see over the next months as people continue to go to NC or not.

Regular Joined: Aug 23, 2003 Posts: 77

ZX dislike sentiel, i guess NC really hit HitsFan

hit a fans badly.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:32 pm

Sorry for the extra post, but a question of curiosity. If you are banned, then is it possible that when you go to a nuke site that you get a 404 error, or is there some other notice that you get to let you know you are no longer able to access the site? I just attempted to get into the forum to look at Vin's responce again, and initially got the site maintenance logo. Now, after attempting to reload, I get the 404. Is NC down again, or was I banned? Very Happy

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:50 pm

domain pings ok for me but the site gives me a 404 too.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:51 pm

Maybe the "new owner" got tired of what was going on and pulled the plug for now? Laughing

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:06 pm

you know he removed all phpnuke file

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:21 pm

Yeah don't look like much there just now. Nothing left but the default Apache directories.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:22 pm

It's coming up on a new ip now. Means at the very least a change of server?

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:23 pm

They had announced earlier that they were changing hosts.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:59 pm

After reading Vin's reply, I understand what he is talking about. What I do NOT understand is what he is getting at as to who is the shooters and who was doing the shooting back.

On one side, he could be defending NC and the fact that we went there and started shooting at them. That, of course, leaves out the simple fact that all this was started by Xhen and his irresponsible posting, along with his failure to INVESTIGATE the matter FULLY before posting his slander on the front page of a highly trafficed PHPNuke community site.

On the other hand, he could be sending a message to his own staff and admins on this. It could be a case where Chat, Raven, Bob, and the Sentinel staff were the ones being shot at, so they would keep returning fire till left alone. I am hopeing that it is the later.

As I am not one to hide from anyone, and the fact that I have made comments about Vin's post in here, I have taken the liberty to PM him with a message and a link to this thread. My message to him was as follows:

Quote:

Hello Vin,

Sorry to PM you, but I feel it only fair that you be given a link where your comment was brought to my attention, and what my reply was. The link is as follows:
[ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ]

I CAN identify with what you are saying, and if it was the case where this was all started by Chat, Raven, Bob, or any of the other Sentinel developers, I could agree with your comments. Problem is, the "shooting" was NOT started from them, but from Xhen. So yes, I will agree that some of the Sentinel developers did exactly what you reference, and with good reason.

Posts I have seen from you do not fall in with what I seen from MOST of the Admins over here. I give credit where credit is due. But you guys also have to realize that if Xhen and others are going to CONTINUE to bash this ad-on, then they leave the developers no other choice BUT to keep coming over here to try and set the record straight.

All of this could have been avoided if Xhen wouldn't have left the PERSONAL side get in the way with this, and NOT allowed the unfounded posts to FUEL the whole situation. It all could have been stopped, and still COULD be stopped if Xhen AND the Admins over here would just set the record straight. All of the accusations have been UNFOUNDED, so now it is time to set the record straight and be the LEADERS that all those who look up to you guys have come to expect from NC.

It comes down to a simple point of right and wrong. Is it right to allow the false and unfounded posts to shed a bad light on another security measure that can be used by the community to protect their sites? Is it right to continue to allow the deleted and unfounded posts to stick in the minds of those that read only parts of them before getting the truth contained in the end of them, only to decide without being FULLY educated on this ad-on?

I don't go around picking fights Vin, and it's not my intention here either. Can you honestly say that allowing things to sit as they are is the right thing to do? Wouldn't it be more "right" to set the story straight and allow people to make a FULLY educated choice? Keep in mind, the "full" education should be IMPARTIAL and present the FACTS not the bashing.

Just my two cents. Sorry to fill your inbox with a book.

Not sure what this will bring about. Just am not one to say things about someone, or make interjections and such without giving them the opportunity to comment on the matter.

Sorry Burn, maybe I should move my posts to another thread as this is getting WAY off topic here. So to try and keep it back on topic, once again thanks for the comments you made on behalf of Sentinel. Maybe between one of our posts, maybe someone over there will finally get the idea, and maybe choose to finally do what's right afterall.

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:39 am

For heaven sake, enough! Gee wiz, regardless of who started it will someone be the bigger person and end it.

Christ wrote:

If thy left eye offend thee pluck it out.

I think we all know what he meant by that statement.

whiteknight0571 wrote:

At that point, honesty and truth need to win over, and that must be presented in a way that protects and informs all those that look up to you.

I agree wholeheartedly. I trust all the owners/team at both sites. I use NSN and NC contributions to the community. I am thankful to all who contribute addons, modules, security, etc to the community. I am not, I refuse to fight this person or that person war, the only war I will fight is the war against hackers not developers of phpnuke products. Can you imagine the amount of energy going to waste over all this nonsense? Drama, drama, drama and I thought Lifetime TV had alot of drama Mr. Green

Can we all agree to disagree without the slander? I come here because I like this site, I go there because I like that site too. Whatever is going on between NC & others I think is a personal issue and it shouldn't effect us (nuke community). Therefore, we (the community) shouldn't allow personal isssues to effect us as a whole. All I can see from this is divide & conquer. What is there to conquer? and who will lose in the end? (the nuke community). Do I need to toss in the white flag at both sites?

Hangin' Around Joined: Sep 10, 2002 Posts: 30

fff, while I agree with your sentiments, the creators of Sentinel cannot sit back and allow NC slurs to remain unchallenged. Take for example your panic attack when you believed that Sentinel had caused one of you new users to be flooded with popups and what not.

If you remember correctly, the NC crew were happy to let you think it was Sentinel. Encouraging you to report to ComputerCops. I am sure most people who read your issue could see very quickly that it was only a very very slim chance that Sentinel had caused the problem (the new search bar the user found was a dead giveaway that it was something else). Yet, despite the obvious, NC let you believe something different. Is that really the conduct of a site that you can trust ?

If it wasn't for the likes of Burnwave and others, the same ones being called trolls over and NC, the "NC Truth" would have prevailed whereby you, and many others, would believe that Sentinel was responsible for the problem your user had.

I'm all in favour of being more mature and adult about this little rift between NC and the Sentinel crew, but people must be allowed to defend themselves when false allegations are made.

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:39 am

I am usually quiet about pretty much all topics...

If a reputable site like NC indirectly flames someone, I will certainly flame them back, by stating the obvious, and the truth.