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Raven
Site Admin/Owner


Joined: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 17084
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:56 pm Reply with quote

With this latest announcement from phpnuke Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! , I would really like to have some very open discussion and hear from EVERYONE who visits this site. What do you think about this? I have been thinking for some time about taking phpnuke v6.9 and forking it. Then, redesigning it from the ground up with security as the main focus. I have many more thoughts on this, but I'd like honest, passionate, non-argumentative opinions on this, simply meaning everyone's opinion is to be left alone, not argued. This is not meant to be an attack on FB or anyone else out there. Is it needed? Is it wanted? Are there too many already? Is it worth it? Would you be interested in working with me on it?

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Maeve
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:19 am Reply with quote

Well,

I'm afraid I just don't know enough about php or php-nuke yet to make an intelligent response.

All I can say is that a focus on security is a very good thing from the perspective of anyone who runs a website .. be it of material stored upon it, information belonging to site members or just protection from bandwisth theft and harvesting.

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Rikk03
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Joined: Feb 16, 2004
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:53 am Reply with quote

If you are thinking of focusing on security why not encorporate a shopping system, ive been using oscnukelite recently - its a project with alot of potential - my big worry though is security and the flaws in phpnuke. Would you consider joining the development team?

I have to say the current team dont run their site particularily well - I understand why - they have alot to do - and they like to focus on the programming - merging osc 2.2 and phpnuke 7.

Just out of curiousity have you had a look at oscnukelite? If so what do you think.

As for modifying 6.9, well there are already so many versions of nuke floating about - one more would just add to the confusion, - NSN nuke, I used 6.8 enhanced for a while - but that has seemed to loose cohesion.

Im happy either way since any good developments end up getting ported to all the rest.
 
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Nukeum66
Life Cycles Becoming CPU Cycles


Joined: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 551
Location: Neurotic, State, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:41 am Reply with quote

I think this is a great idea. Security should be High Priority and allow more time between version releases(Meaning: fix all bugs in one version before releasing another. New versions should have new feature not new bugs!). It seems that PHP-Nuke.org has set a higher priority to releasing the next version than it has for some security issues.

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Last edited by Nukeum66 on Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total 
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baloo
Hangin' Around


Joined: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:53 am Reply with quote

hmmm. Honestly I'd love to see a new community form that forks PHP-Nuke away from FB. So many forks have failed, or have marginal support simplty because there aren't enough users.

In my ideal world, you, chatserv, the guys at NukeCops would join Maty, Bob Marion and crew and start a single form. The guys I just mentioned are the Nuke developers I trust the most and I would follow without a shadow of a doubt. I need an alternative to FB's solution simply because he talks about Proprietry modules more and more. Not my idea of GPL.

I'll follow a fork that has the most public support to ensure I am not stranded with a proprietry CMS down the track.

All the best with whatever you choose.
 
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sharlein
Member Emeritus


Joined: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 322
Location: On the Road

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:05 am Reply with quote

Raven, I think that a fork from 6.9 is the best choice. The future of phpNuke (as FB describes it) would not include me. As you know, my websites are not run for profit, they are run for enjoyment. I feel that security and content managment are the most important things for my kind of site. As far as bugs go, that seems to be ignored in versions since 6.5. Read any forum, and avatars will be mentioned several times. How frustrating is it to a novice user, i.e., most of the people who visit my sites, to pick an avatar, and then go to change it, to no avail? I will offer space at my original site for testing, if you need it. In closing, we are at a fork in the road, I feel it is the right time to take that fork. Respectfully - Steve

You know you can also count on me for some financial support if needed. Very Happy

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chatserv
Member Emeritus


Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 1399
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:59 am Reply with quote

I'd go with 7.0, heck, maybe even 7.1, why? Maybe we don't have a use for point groups, subscriptions and the like but others do, so why stay behind? as long as all bugs are tracked down and corrected and the code is secured as best as humanly possible it would be a winning project.
 
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sixonetonoffun
Spouse Contemplates Divorce


Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Posts: 2499

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:16 am Reply with quote

if( You take this path your plan sounds good. Stripping down to core with focus remaining there makes sense.) If folks want to incorperate carts, forums and so on then it only makes sense to have a strong place to begin from. New features are great but what good are they if you don't want them, don't need them or they make adding what you do want harder.

I've somewhat followed the oscnuke versons and they are constantly faced with many issues that simply wouldn't exist if the core was consistantly the same. The 2 applications are coded in such completely different styles it is a tribute to the various folks involved they have succeeded in this endevor at all. Really I don't think osc users will want for much as its next evolution is likely to make it easier to integration into portals. The first attempts I saw at this integration were really clumsy and incomplete. The first I looked at was merged with phpnuke6.0 well by the time it was almost usable 6.5 was out with huge changes to the core. Now within a year this cycle will be repeated.

Point is enough is enough. Evolution is great but stability and forward thinking should be part of it too. My only question is why start with 6.9 how about 6.0 my 6.0 site with nukecops ported forums is so much faster then 6.9. Less bloat to remove thats for sure.

Anyway I'll sure follow the thread here sitting on my hands.
 
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Raven
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:29 am Reply with quote

I just want to add a little more definition to my initial statements and comment on a few of the comments. I have received some private correspondence and while I appreciate ALL the thoughts/comments, please keep them public so everyone has access to help them weigh the challenges, if you will Smile.

Joining with the other people/sites may have merit, but is really not possible, for several reasons. It's something like the United Nations. Working for the greater good. Sounds good in theory but in reality .... Nuke Cops would never participate in anything like this because they are the only 'recognized' development partner of FB. They wouldn't (and couldn't) entertain any partnership like this. And the very reason I am considering this is that I do not think FB is any longer on the right track, so that would be useless.

There will be cries of fracturing the community, etc., references to PostNuke and Xayara, etc., I realize that and that is not my goal nor focus. The bottom line is that I, as well as many others, have a different vision, if you will, as to what a foundational system needs to be. When I first came across phpnuke, like many others, I was trying to avoid having to reinvent the wheel. I tried many out there and really had settled on PostNuke. That was about the time where the split from FB had recently occurred and there was a lot of passion, anger, emotion, etc. and I really felt PN was a more stable foundation and they had a project plan and focus clearly stated. But, they then started having internal problems, mainly due to power and egos, and the PN group split [again] and went the Xayara way and basically left PN floundering, imo. Anyway, it has led me to this crossroad. I am tired of patching EVERY release that comes out the door.

First of all, we need to recognize that nuke is NOT a CMS by definition. It has some of the functionality of a CMS but it is far from a CMS. It would more closely resemble a Portal. That is not good nor bad but to me is very important as we go forward. We need to determine what it is we are building. Then we need to force on the architecture/structure from security, development, usability viewpoint. This requires thought and planning, but I do not intend to become another Xaraya with rfc's, etc. And don't misunderstand me. I think very highly of John Cox for his contributions and fortitude. Xaraya is very nice, but very complicated. Complicated is not for the public, in general. I don't know if I/we can do any better, but I'm not looking at it from a 'better' standpoint. We need a system that has not been bandaided and paperclipped to 'fix' things. We need a system that is more logical in its approach to adding new functionality. I could drone on and on, but i will stop, except for the following high level plan as I see it right now, should I determine to go down this path.

- We will design a Portal
- Backward compatability should be important, but to fix something that is broken will require that there be changes that may require changes in the addons, etc. So, we will provide the migration path.
- Security will be the mantra. Plain and simple.
- It will have an object oriented approach, meaning reusable objects. There should not be 2 ways to do X, whatever X is. All blocks/modules/core will read a database the same way, as an example.
- Themes. While there is much that could/should be done here, this is not an initial focus. OTOH, if there was someone who knew what they were doing and could develop a theming system and a migration path, this could be done concurrently.
- A core functionality will be identified and will be developed before anything else is done. The new system will be delivered with only core and all addons will be a separate 'package', thereby maintaining the integrity of the system
- Qulaity Assurance will exist!
- Enough for now, I think you see the 'plan'

One last word. The burning question in my mind as well as others, I'm sure, is whether a reconstruction can be done or is this really a new system. Quite honestly? I don't know. Does 'reconstruction' become 'new' when 51% of the code is modified? This is all a part of this discussion. The one thing that I believe cannot happen is that this becomes drawn out. I've been managing and developing systems since 1970. I am a firm believer in Project Management - Plan the Work and Work the Plan. I cannot do this on my own nor will I try. The talent that is in our community can be harvested if, and only if, egos are set aside. There will have to be an agreement that there will be a Lead team and an overall Project Lead. Not all ideas/code will be accepted as it may run counter to the vision/focus, whatever. While we cannot allow this to draw out (it will surely die from lack of support and interest) no coding can start until we agree

- What it is
- What it should look like
- Can we get there in a reasonable amount time
- Is it worth it


Last edited by Raven on Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total 
Rikk03
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:40 am Reply with quote

After reading the other responses I think any project that is dedicated to security, ease of use and functionality will attract users in droves especially when there are so many security issues else where. Like most phpnuke users i for one have tried many variations, NSN nuke, Envolution, Enhanced 6.8, osc2nuke, postnuke, oscnukelite etc. At the end of the day people will turn to the most stable - secure environment, module addons and blocks will take care of themselves with the circling community (im sure many of which will require security cleanup Neutral ) will no doubt provide plenty of ports, - if you make it easy to do. I know themes are a secondary issue - but they are none the less important, would it be possible to somehow keep aspects of the nuke theming system - if not a really decent guide will be required (finding the time will be difficult).

Security updates are another issue please please please provide a decent guide to updating - with regards to security updates - all updates of any kind.


I want to understand your development as you go Raven, I know this is not your intention but there are many people who want to be good with php and would learn from you guys. Unfortunately i tend to learn the hard way - trial and error - but ive kinda gotten tired of my own incompetance. I want to be able to understand the code, it is essential for any new long term looking CMS production / nuke fork to be open about what is going on. Im sure there will be leeches from other communities that will benefit from your work, but if your intentions are admirable these irritations will not fluster you. Your work will speak volumes and reputation will be inspiring.

A good website that is moderated with a little compasion for the less knowlegable - will bring unwavering support (thats why i keep returning here Smile great site Raven). Would open examination of the code - before it is included be of use. I say there can never be enough feedback. I think this website is great Raven - simple - well looked after. But i have to say i shudder at it becoming as big as nukecops - I really do not like going there - not sure why - i guess its the forums - i only go out of necessity - I come here because i want to and because you talk to the n00bs. I think it will be a real challenge to manage something like nukecops.

I think that the best way to give support is to discuss everything openly but i do not think one single site will be able to manage all the information generated by user postings - so many questions are repeated over and over - a waste of time and thought. It will save time in the long run to provide decent support all the way through.

I am sure you will be offered different kinds of help from various quaters - I for one would only be to happy to help in whatever meager way i could. I believe it is important to manage that - utilize the offers of support.

I have to wonder whether u know what you are getting into.

Richard
 
Raven
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:09 pm Reply with quote

Rikk03 wrote:
I have to wonder whether u know what you are getting into.

Richard
Laughing - me too.

Seriously, thank you for a well thought out and constructed post. Fortunately (or not) I do know what getting into this would mean. I totally agree that there should/could/would never be just one place for all the needs of the community. The talent pool is too diverse for this to happen and the subject matter is too big. What I envision is to build the infrastructure and make it so solid that you build to an API (concept or reality - it doesn't matter) that allows you to do what you need to and updates are logical (not replacing 100% of the files to upgrade). I have a design in mind that would alleviate that in its entirety. As I said, there is much that I haven't said because I prefer to hear other designs and approaches to help validate (or invalidate for better Smile ) my ideas and to let the community meet and learn about others with great ideas. There are many who don't know PHP or don't know it well enough to dig into the code. That matters not to me. Coding will not begin until the design works. We will need architects, designers, visionaries, etc. When the design methodology is agreed upon the design will begin, etc. This has great possibilities!
 
Lateron
Worker
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Joined: May 10, 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Katoomba, NSW, Australia.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:40 pm Reply with quote

I never used v6.9, I went from 6.5 to 7.0.

I am just wondering why you have picked 6.9 as your favoured base.

Regards,
Ron...
 
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Raven
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:40 pm Reply with quote

It was more stable, imo. But, as Chatserv has said, even though we may not see the few addons in the later editions as 'needed' other might. I am not at all locked in to any version, per se.
 
scottr
PHP-Portal Project


Joined: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 41
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:53 pm Reply with quote

Well, I've been basing all recent nuke envs on your 6.9 with phpbb2.0.6 release.

i find it the most stablest and secure when i apply chatserv's 2.1 patches (2.2 now).

nuke 7.0+ has subscriptions and points and just bloats nuke in my opinion.
i don't know anyone who actually uses it either.

to me that's just yet another revenue stream for FB but provides no real value to the CMS/Portal.
so i vote 6.9.
plus lots of host providers offer 25MB plans for cheap and 7.0+ makes it really tight.

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Savent
Regular
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Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:39 pm Reply with quote

Raven I say go for it, I would trust you to build it, cause I know it will be bug free..unlike php nuke is. You and Chatserv are the best coders in php nuke, PERIOD.. Zhen-Xjell gets alot of hipe cause he runs nukecops, but you and chatserv both worked with him, and you and chatserv and the whole rest of the nuke world know that Paul does not have the coding talent as you two do. Smile Me personnel I see just by going to nukecops, it looks like Paul cares more about his other site computer cops more. Just my 2 cents. Laughing

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Lateron
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:45 pm Reply with quote

Quote:

nuke 7.0+ has subscriptions and points and just bloats nuke in my opinion.
i don't know anyone who actually uses it either.



I have four sites built around Raven's V7 distro so I am definitely biased in favour of V7. Very Happy

Ron...
 
ArtificialIntel
New Member
New Member


Joined: Mar 08, 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:03 am Reply with quote

Raven

This post was brought to my attention and really has peaked my interest.

I know that if you go ahead with this that NSN-Nuke would be a rival of sorts to any project you would create, but we do seem to share a lot of common goals and interests in the portal / cms system projects

Our previous offer for you to join the NSN-Nuke team is still open if you wish to join us rather than starting another fork yourself, though if you do go your own way, I'll be watching with interest Smile

Of course, you don't have to join us, it's not obligatory or anything, but it would be nice to have what was one of NukeCops only decent programmers join our team in the quest to create a stable, secure CMS / Portal project with a no-suggestion-goes-ignored policy Smile

Love to hear from you soon Smile

AI
 
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Raven
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:57 am Reply with quote

Remember in Terminator Two where the bad cyborg is broken up into pieces and then turns to molten whatever and the liquid starts coming together again? To see you here reminds me of that. Chat, Six, AI, Raven - Kind of like a class reunion, know what mean Laughing

Good to hear from you! I appreciate your offer as I did before. And even though I haven't commented on it, I am looking at what would make the community stronger, and/or give more options, and/or cause more problems/divisions. All the more value added input. Much to consider. Trust that you are well. What kind of a response have you received? How many downloads? What is the structure?
 
reikimaster
PHP-Portal Project


Joined: Mar 05, 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:27 pm Reply with quote

I'm watching this all with great interest even though I only "discovered" nuke about a month ago. I use version 7 and like it. I don't honestly know what 7.1 would offer that I don't have.

I've been coming here as long as I've been going to nukecops. I find you, Raven, to be responsive and helpful. Here AND there. I would love to see nuke "cleaned up". I think there's a lot of legacy stuff in it that could probably stand some tweaking. Happens with any product as it ages I guess.

Tops on MY list would be security. The recent rash of defacements on nuke sites just says it's too darned easy. Don't get me wrong. I've had straight html sites defaced in the past as well. So I know there's idiots and there's PERSISTANT idiots. *shrug*

I would have a few questions for future development..

How many truly multilingual sites are there? By asking this I guess what I'm really asking is... How many people need all the language files? I would think it to be pretty nice if a nuke distro came with English, French, Spanish, German and Italian as I think that would cover the most territory in most cases. But since nuke is so modular, why not make the language additions modular?

I would bet that for 90% of the users of nuke, the language files are just a piece of baggage they don't need.

DOCUMENT the differences/similarities between Content and Sections so people can decide which one to use. I haven't seen anyone using both but who knows?

On the CMS vs Portal question, I say why limit it? It does both pretty well. Could use a little (but not a lot of) documentation on how to add content to a site. There are a lot of nuke portals, but understand that a lot of people are also using it for personal or small sites and most of them simply want to be able to add "pages" and put a link to those pages on a menu. Yes I know Nuke already does this, but I'm also betting it's one of the most commonly asked questions.... "I have it installed, patched, secured and working... now how do I add pages?"

The CVS thing at nukecops looks pretty nice. Too bad they don't answer questions about it very often. The idea though of being able to have my site automatically update files from a cvs repository is very interesting.

Security, bug-free operation, features that aren't broken (and apparently have BEEN broken through several releases). I think that's the starting point.
Cleaning up the code is a laborious and tedious task. (still trying to access the database using the OLD abstraction layer?)
Keeping the modularity of the CMS enables almost endless options. If you start with and lock down a solid core, you're way ahead of the game.

Is there a way to tie categories together? Would be nice if the search function searched an entire site... topics... content... posts... FAQ... etc.

I'm rambling. I've been up almost a month and have only just today even STARTED to add content. Busy patching and fixing a 7.0 install from a reputable source ever since I got it. (Not yours... didn't know about yours a month ago.. Smile )
 
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karakas
Hangin' Around


Joined: Feb 20, 2004
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:27 pm Reply with quote

With your question you put your fingers in the wound, Raven!

I presented Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! quite some time ago. For the sake of completeness, I copy it here:

################################################

Idea Proposal: Everything that one could imagine in PHP-Nuke should be customizable through tables - just like Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!!

Arrow Why? Today, we have to answer questions like


  • I want the left column to disappear.
  • I want the right column to disappear.
  • I want to set the foreground/background/table/whatever colour in my theme.
  • I want the list item character to be a bullet/ring/nuke symbol/whatever.
  • I want only 3 news to be displayed in the home page, not 5, 10, 15 or 20.
  • I got an error - what is it? Why not be able to set the debugging level for every piece of code individually?
  • I want to disable the security code image.
  • I want the user to be able to set his own password on registration.
  • I want to change the top horizontal menu to something else.
  • I want to place my banner on top/to the left/to the right of the X-Y-Z element.
  • I want to disable/enable ranking in the X-Y-Z module.
  • I want to approve members before they get registered.
  • I want my members to register without any intervention from the administrator and without having to click on any confirmation links.
  • I want my members to click on a confirmation link before they register.
  • I want to start the external X-Y-Z workflow before a member registers. (why not?)
  • I want to have only 1 category level in WebLinks/Encyclopedia/FAQ/whatever.
  • I want to have 10 category levels in WebLinks/Encyclopedia/FAQ/whatever.
  • ...


We answer these questions with hacks:

Quote:

Edit the file ... Got to line ... Change the code .... to ... Be careful to type it exactly as I show you!


Why does the average Nuker have to hack PHP code and why do 90% of the answers in forums have to be code hacks? I am not talking about bugs here, I am talking about customization.

I envision a Nuke *system* (one that deserves to be called a System) where all the above and even more will be configured through a graphical interface that will take the user's choices and tweak some table entries. One that will have a data dictionary and will enforce referential integrity, see


  • Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!
  • Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!
  • Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!
  • Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!


I don't propose a Nuke system with SAP's complexity. We don't have to go that far. But something away from code hacks to customizing through tables would be highly desirable for me.

Since I am a Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! myself, I can assist in the design process, if someone decides to start such an ambitious project - just let me know! Smile

################################################

Well, it seems that the time has come! Exclamation
 
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sixonetonoffun
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:30 pm Reply with quote

I agree with reikimaster language system and policies regarding them, are a huge stumbling block in the current system/development. I imagine it has a lot to do with the desision to create native forums @the.org
 
Raven
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:54 pm Reply with quote

Chris,

It's like a breath of fresh air. The fact that NC took the approach they did is one of the main reasons I left. I wanted to go down the Design the Model first and take it slow before programming and tossing out code, etc. I didn't desire to continue to be blocking and reacting to the bullets that keep misfiring; I wanted to fix the gun! Call it what you will, but I have been in the Industry since 1970 and designing before coding has worked rather well over the years Smile Obviously analysis-paralysis is a disease that we must avoid, but a systematic, solid design with reusable objects and encapsulated functions that create a solid API to draw upon are easily within our reach, I believe. If we can break it down to the core and let the talent that is in the community concentrate on addons and let the users and webmasters that want little to do with coding manage their sites and businesses, we will have a great product!

I have a design model for handling changes that would make removing them and updating them so much easier but it would require a change from the PHP development team and they rejected it. Oh well, so I'm working on an alternate design that will accomplish the same thing but will require it to be handled in the API. Would you love to be able to hack a core object (or any object for that matter) and never touch the core object, but if something goes wrong you just flip a switch, so to speak, and you're right back where you were? Uh huh; me too Smile . Ah yes, the plot thickens ....

BTW, I haven't mixed and mingled with SAP in years. Isn't your db/system named R3? In fact wasn't it once referred to as Software AG?
 
reikimaster
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:25 pm Reply with quote

Raven-

I have somewhat meager coding skills, but if you decide to make a go of this, it sounds like you'll be using the php-nuke IDEA, but almost rewriting the whole thing from scratch. Regardless... I leave that to the code wizards.

I CAN however offer to assist with documenting this project in terms of end-user documentation. In the short time I've been using php-nuke I sometimes marvel at the amount of "How to install it" and "how to fix it" documentation there is... and how sorely lacking is the availability of "HOW TO USE IT" documentation.

I know it ain't much.... but it's what I can do if you need it.
 
karakas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:29 pm Reply with quote

Raven wrote:

BTW, I haven't mixed and mingled with SAP in years. Isn't your db/system named R3? In fact wasn't it once referred to as Software AG?


The "business logic" is in R/3. The DB can be any of the usual databases, Oracle, SQL server, Adabas, Max DB. Software made Adabas once, you are confusing SAG (Software AG) with SAP - uh-oh... Laughing

But let's not digress.

We must answer the questions:

- What are the requirements?
- What is the framework we intend to use?
- Data dictionary, data model, ERD (Entity-Relationship-Diagrams), UML (Unified Modeling Language)?
- CASE tools?
- A prototype as a proof of concept?

Oh...and by the way, have a look at Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!. The design of its commercial predecessor is dicussed in Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!. See also Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!.
 
Raven
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:31 pm Reply with quote

Reikimaster an all others who may want to have a part:

Sincerely I say this. Should we embark down that trail, it will require skills, talents, desires, and much more. Diversity truly can accomplish much with a solid design. It is exciting just to know that so many are willing to forge a new way. Thanks!
 
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