ex-jehovahs witness support group site (everyone welcome)

Hangin' Around Joined: Oct 31, 2004 Posts: 33

If anyones interested we have started a site to support ex-jehovahs witnesses for people to share stories find out information or meet others that have been affected by this religion.

Thanks to raven the site is running ravens distro.

everyone is welcome to visit or share
http://www.thomschat.com

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

You might also place a post in the Sites To Visit section. This subject matter is important enough to warrant a double posting. I visited your site but didn't see any testimonies about how/when/where/why you or any others left this very dangerous and destructive cult. Hopefully it was because you found the True Saviour, Jesus Christ!

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:28 pm

Raven,

Yes its very important to get the word out about this religion and what it does to people especially childern. we have some stories about how this religion has effected people posted in the journals section the sites brand new so we hope that many people can get some closure and healing by posting there thoughts in the journals or the forums sections.

There are alot of anti jw sites on the internet and we have chosen to be a site for closure and healing. we dont want to bash the rank and file jw's or anyone else just focus on healing from the pain of being brainwashed. The average rank and file jw's are some of the best people I have ever met they just are misled Alot of people after discovering the lies they had been taught leave religion altogether almost each and every one of us has agonizing story about there time in the religion.

My personal story is as follows,

I was born in the early 60s to parents that where the religion. in my early years I had to suffer tremendously at school by not saluting the flag or attending any religiously tied events and was from that very point singled out by teachers and other childern for abuse.

At around age 16 I was interested in going to collage and my parents started pressuring me to be baptised .. the only way you can advance in the religion to a ministerial servant or higher rank is to have your house under control... they used this lever to pressure my parents into forcing me to be baptised.

Even at that age I could see that the religion was all wrong for me so many things wrong with it and my parents did not understand how being a witness singled me out for grieve at school and socially since they walked into it as adults. Also after being baptised if you make any mistakes they dissfellowship you which is a very cruel form of shunning. jw's are not allowed to have any interaction with dissfellowshipped persons even if they are family.

So I decided that I would not be baptised at 16 and my parents then threw me out into the streets ( same as shunning ) only for me to meet the worst of worst people pick up some bad habits and basically ruined my entire inoccents.

Over the last 25 years I have been down a hard path becuse of loss of family and still suffer from the brain washing I recieved as a small child .. this year I finally decided to research and find out what I could and write about it as a final release guilt from my mind .. yes even knowing the facts from the very begining about the religion there is still alot of lingering guilt related to xmas and things that most people enjoy.

Also my mother is still "in" the religion so I have to walk a fine line so as not to be shunned anything not for the reilgion to them is considered either a product of the "evil slave class" or "apostasy" so I have to be very careful as you see on the site not many are in the position to loose there familys and everything they have to reveal there true belifes many are trapped by the unchristian legalistic mandates of the watchtower bible and tract society.

and yes I am still very christian and look forward to the promise found at romans 8:1

heres some links I have found during my reasearch

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/default.ashx

http://www.disfellowshipped.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practices_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

http://www.freeminds.org/

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:11 pm

The "goats' and the "sheep". I am very proud to have been branded a goat sinc 4/10/1979 Wink

- Read my testimony here [ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ] . I was never involved with any cults. Although no better, I was an agnostic Sad

Involved Joined: Oct 09, 2004 Posts: 293

I keep a copy of the Koran..no I'm not Muslem..If one takes the time out to read it, theres a heap of stuff that is the same as the bible, just bit diff due to translations.
Anyway, The JW come banging on the door..(used to lol) I would be friendly, gently steer the conservation...then they would quote something.
SO I would say "hang on" get my book, that has a few book marks in just for this purpose...lloksa good to lol
Open it up read a few verses.
Well they recognise them but not quite sure cause the wording is only close...Any way they don't want to show they ignorance, and carry on...So I now quote something else meaningful...again a little more confused...So this time I close the Koran...in such a manner they can see what it is...
So with great intergence...I mean, they have seen the book's title..and ask "what book is that?"
So I turn it around and show them...you know in the same way polite they try to ram their books down your throught...sort of make u put your hand out manipulation...
Hmmm this really messes them up, cause for an instant they are sucked in everytime..they put their hand out, I move the book towards their hand Then say very clearly " Its the Koran"
ROTFL

Its like the movies..u know when the vampire gets burnt by the Holy Water, or a Cross ROTFL

I have a sick sense of humour...so I'm told. Bang Head

Then I proceed to ask them "how is it they are so sure of what they believe in, yet they are not a where of other concepts of God?"

So with that life has got a little boring...I think our home must be on a blacklist not to visit cause ppl go back with strange ideas lol
I have a very simplistic, committed, belief in God

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:00 pm

Wow raven total agnostic and now your christian thats very rare... most of the people I have met at one point or another went from being belivers into being agnostic... very strange but beautiful thing happened to you - the loss of my father caused sort of the same reaction - whats life if your not going to be with your family or have them love and accept you.

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:53 pm

Steptoe I understand how it is when they come knocking at your door its easy to prove them wrong and if you do they wont come back in sort of the same style as internet phishing they just move on and find someone that will belive or listen to what they say... most people misunderstand why they show up at the door in the first place.

Really it is about pressure from the watchtower bible and track society of brooklyn, new york. its not the rank and file jw's fault they are taught that anyone opposing the Watchtower view is of the *evilslave class or in other words doing the work of the devil.

These people are slowly manipulated into this belive over time essentially they are BRAINWASHED very slowly to do everything that the watchtower tells them to do. OR SUFFER through loosing priveliges or being completly shut off from thier familys. In fact personally know of many that DO NOT belive what they are doing is right (door to door) but MUST do so or suffer the loss of family, and some familys of jw's are 4th generation. My own family has 3 generations of jws.

The average jw as I see it has fallin for a lure and decived by the organization that they trust in. The motivation for them to do this is simple selfishness, they will trample there own childern to get into paradise thats what they are promised and the promise is not all that bad.

The thing that they leave out is the fact that THEY ARE THE only ones going...

Quote:

*** Watchtower 1989 September 1 p. 19 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***
7 Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

According to the watchtower everyone and everything else is of the evil class and will be destroyed... So even if your son turns into ganhdi or your daughter becomes some one like mother teresa they wont be spared.... so under this threat they will trample there own childeren if they feel that its getting in there way of paradise.

The are asked to many things that are unthinkable such as let a child die in need of blood, not report a rape if there are not two witnesses present per mosaic law and many other wrong incorrect things.. by the organization that controls there every move The Watchtower the reason they do it is because the organization claims they are "gods spirit lead organzation here on earth" ei- The HOLY SPIRIT

Quote:

IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? ... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. ... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record.

and heres a list of failed prophecy that streches 120 years

Quote:

1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)

1908 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

1917 "And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 258)

1917 "It is the Day of Vengeance, which began in the world war of 1914 and which will break like a furious morning storm in 1918." (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 404)

1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 8 Cool

1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90)

1922 "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." (The Watchtower, March 1, 1922)

1922 '1914 ended the Gentile Times...The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures...by then the great crisis will be reached and probably passed' (Watchtower Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262)

1923 '1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures...the Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge' (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106)

1925 "The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." (Watchtower 1925, p. 56)

1940 The Kingdom is here, the King is enthroned. Armageddon is just ahead. The glorious reign of Christ that shall bring blessings to the world will immediately follow. Therefore the great climax has been reached. Tribulation has fallen upon those who stand by the Lord. (The Messenger, Sept. 1940, p. 6)

1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)

1989 Jehovahï¿½s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: ï¿½This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.ï¿½ (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment...

The Watchtower 1984 May 15 pp. 6-7

1989 "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1989, p. 12 [bound volume changed "20th century" to "day"])

1993 "Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect.. Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'" {AWAK Mar 22 1993 4}

Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: 'This generation (of 1914) will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son's words in a relatively short time." {WT May 15 1984 6}

The Watchtower recognizes the truth as belonging to Jehovah, and not to any creature. The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men. No manï¿½s opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will.

(Watchtower 1931 November 1 p. 327)

Jehovah God is therefore the only Supreme Court of interpretation of His inspired word.... To such remnant of faithful servants of Jehovah God Christ Jesus has entrusted all ï¿½his goodsï¿½, or earthly interests of the Kingdom. This does not signify that the faithful remnant or society of Jehovahï¿½s anointed witnesses are an earthly tribunal of interpretation, delegated to interpret the Scriptures and its prophecies. No; Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. THE SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPRETS, thank God; and Christ Jesus, the Courtï¿½s official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as head of Jehovahï¿½s ï¿½faithful and wise servantï¿½ class. He merely uses the ï¿½servantï¿½ class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.

(Watchtower 1943 July 1 p. 202, 203)

So the next time they come knocking on your door please consider the fact that many are doing so under great duress and threat of loosing thier familys many may in there own mind may aggree with you 100% but can not ever let it slip.

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:55 pm

Having trusted in the promises of Christ almost 27 years ago, I have tried to keep a consistant testimony before my family and friends. It was very hard at first because I was on fire and wanted to share this new life I had found. I pressed too hard in my excitement and drove wedges where love should have been planted. I went through various stages of growth and rejection, but the more I allowed God to change me through His love and patience, the more I came to see that truly, actions speak louder than words. I had been witnessing to my dad for 25 years and even though he did not want to have anything to do with religion, he got to the point several years ago where he would not eat a meal unless I would pray. Praise God. As my dad was then stricken with cancer and much more and was dying, I was saddened over the thought of never seeing him again and knowing he would suffer an eternity in hell. Then, just weeks before he died, he told me he was scared of dying and I asked him if he would like to know how he could spend an eternity in heaven (I'm starting to cry remembering this). He said, after all those years of sowing, yes he would. I then had the profound honor and joy of leading my own father to the Throne of Grace through the Blood of Christ! He died shortly after but he was at so much more peace. I know that when I die, I will see him, 4 grandchildren that were miscarried by my daughter and daughter-in-law, and 3 children that my wife miscarried along the way. Those promises are certainly not enough to cause me to want to die, but they sure are enough to make me know that when God takes me, I will be reunited with many I know and so many that I do not know Smile

. And of course, as the words of the Fanny Crosby hymn My Saviour First Of All illustrate, this is how I will know Him.

"When my life work is ended, and I cross the swelling tide,
When the bright and glorious morning I shall see;
I shall know my Redeemer when I reach the other side.
And His smile will be the first to welcome me."

Chorus.
"I shall know Him, I shall know Him,
When redeemed by His side I shall stand;
I shall know Him, I shall know Him,
By the print of the nails in His hand."

Oh, the soul-thrilling rapture when I view His blessed
Face,
And the lustre of His kindly beaming eye;
How my full heart will praise Him for the mercy, love, and
grace,
That prepares for me a mansion in the sky.
Chorus.

Oh the dear ones in glory how they beckon me to come!
And our parting at the river I recall:
To the sweet vales of Eden they will sing my welcome
home:
But I long to meet my Saviour first of all.
Chorus.

Thro' the gates of the city, in a robe of spotless white,
He will lead me where no tears will ever fall;
In the glad song of ages I shall mingle with delight
But I long to meet my Saviour first of all."
Chorus.

Bottom line? Life is through Christ Jesus and whether or not my family and friends love and accept me, they must love and accept my Saviour or it is not real love anyway.

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:09 pm

Quote:

when they come knocking at your door its easy to prove them wrong

Dont put words in my mouth..I did not say I tried to prove them wrong!!!
I simply asked a couple of curious questions.
And I Dont "misunderstand why they turn up (or used to) at our door"...they want to tell me I am wrong, and unless I change I am a bad person.
I just feel sorry for them and their very narrow and intolerant piont of veiw. Inspite of JW carving a line down beween my Son and I yrs ago...
But Now my Son and I are good m8s...faith and good shone thru.
Out of interest I was a anthesist, up till I was about 30 Then one day, on my own, God just seemed more logical. I didnt change at all, just the reasoning behind my actions did.
What I cant figure out is why there is so much intolerance between churchs, cults, relgions...its the same as sexism or racists atitudes.
Someone sits at our table and what to say Grace, or drinks coffee instead of having a beer on the deck...fine whats the problem?
If their belief is strong enough to make them a good person 7 days a week, who am I to judge? As far as I am concerned they are good friends and trustworthy.
Simple.
I realy dont care what religion, race, culture a person is.
hmmm unless they are American...but even then its not their fault they where born in the US....

Thats got to wind someone up lol
(Kiwi Humour lol) ROTFL

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:16 pm

Hmmm. Well, I guess I should just stand by Proverbs 26: v4,5

26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Wink

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:09 pm

Oh steptoe sorry I did not mean to reffer that YOU where trying to prove them wrong. So sorry didnt mean to come acrossed that way.. what I meant is that its easy for ANYONE to prove them wrong... I should have commented on your post before I went into the reasons why they show up explaination (but got excited and started writing away) .. imho what you did to show them that their are alot of variations to christianity and that as long as they belive in jesus as their savior they will be spared through grace and not works. Your post points out the fact that the bible is both literal and allegorical reading.

The jws read the bible in its entirety literally and legalistically there are no room for any type of allegorical interpetations, (eg- fables) having a koran around really shows that there is a possibility that some of the scriptures are there as lessons to us considering stories that are very much the same in both books such as the story of gilgamesh and noah.

My point is that its a little known fact that most jws may even share this belive as well but for reasons of shunning or loss of family they have to show up and argue. thanks for sharing your story. Its good to see that you relize that some parts of the bible are allegorical as most true bible scholars would belive Smile

Kudo's and all respect's to you Smile

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:58 pm

NPs m8

Quote:

some parts of the bible are allegorical as most true bible scholars would belive

I dont go along with a lot of that
EG Gensis and Dawin (Evolution)..I dont see any logical conflict between the 2

1st basic premisiss
God is infinite..no start no end.
Gods Laws are not just social but include thoses of science, physics, chemisry, balance of nature etc
I see it like this.
U wake up one morning and look out across the paddocks and see an old man with a white beard in the distance...so after breakfast u hike out to see what he is up to. Once there, u see he is painting a huge picture. So u sit down and watch. U notice he is painting a universe, a few splatters of paint here and there, then moves on to another part of the painting. Instead of watching everything he does, u watch what he has done, as the paint dries it cracks, changes colour, some time reacts with the different solvents he has mixed.
It become obvious that he is using the properties of these mixes with a purpose, he knows what he is doing and what effects he wants to happen. He make good use of the natural properties of the paint.
The day goes on, u have missed out on lunch, a bit hungry, so decide to head back home.
The man with the white beard was there when u got up, u dont know when he got there and safly assume he always was there.
The man with the white beard was there, when u left, u have no idea if or when he will leave and safely assume he will always be there

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:02 pm

That was a nice parable steptoe, but I am not sure what that has to do with the difference between the literal and allgorical interpetation of the bible?

Numbers 2:24 Behold, a people will get up like a lion,
And like the lion it will lift itself up.
It will not lie down until it may eat prey,
And the blood of slain ones it will drink.

Do you belive that this paragraph was meant to be taken literally and that they where going to sit around and really drink the blood of the slain ones?

To make that paragraph read litteraly and legally one would need to have some prove that it actually happend. For us to try and interpet the bible litterally would require in depth knowledge of 1st century christians and history even then with our modern perspectives on life and the differences in culture between us and the 1st century christians would be a overwhelming obstical to our understanding of it and many other things in the bible in a litteral sense.

The beauty of the bible is that is both literal and allegorical and is understandable to almost anyone that can read it.

Numbers 2:24 taken in the metephorical/allegorical sense is obvious here as in many parts of the bible. My point is that it is an obvious danger sign to anyone when a religion twists the bibles meanings by making reference to certian scriptures litterally when they are obviously allegorical or its unknown how the 1st century christians understood it.

I aggree with you about the live and let live thing also 100% we arent here to judge others just to try and love them Smile

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:40 pm

Raven, you posted about your father dieing ... made me very sad 3 years ago I had the same thing to face. if your interested compare the simularitys/differences.

Quote:

I had been witnessing to my dad for 25 years and even though he did not want to have anything to do with religion, he got to the point several years ago where he would not eat a meal unless I would pray. Praise God.

My father was religiously devout as they come he did everything accordingly to the bible the most honest and loving careing man I have ever met. I am so happy that your dad changed his view it reminds me that we all can repent and try and change no matter how bad things seem and that it is through grace, repentance and faith that we are saved.

Quote:

As my dad was then stricken with cancer and much more and was dying

I also lost my father to cancer... I am so sorry you had to go through it also.

Quote:

I was saddened over the thought of never seeing him again and knowing he would suffer an eternity in hell. Then, just weeks before he died, he told me he was scared of dying and I asked him if he would like to know how he could spend an eternity in heaven (I'm starting to cry remembering this).

My story is a little different from this as according to jw belives he would not see me in paradise since the only ones entering would be jw's and even tho I am a christian I am part of the evil class . My father did shortly before he died talk to me and said that I should look for him in the tree of life so he must have hope in his mind that I would become a jw at some point or he didnt go along with the entire jw teachings (I suspect). It is so awesome to know that your father accepted christ even at the end whats even more beautiful is that he accepted you compelety also what a double whammy!.

Quote:

I know that when I die, I will see him

This ones so much up in the air with me right now I am pretty sure that god will allow adjustments for those that are misled by organizations or people if they have a good heart and true faith which most jws have.

Some day I will post up my experiences about death I have some first hand experience with it since in 1987 I had an motorcycle accident and was at one point pronounced dead. If you find it interesting mite post what my experiences where and how it effected me.

As for you seeing your father its obvious that your a dedicated christian in grace, faith and works and I really hope that you do get to see him.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:45 pm

Quote:

Do you belive that this paragraph was meant to be taken literally and that they where going to sit around and really drink the blood of the slain ones

?

I look at the Bible (or any Holy book for that matter) as a manual on life

I have a manual open in front of me at the moment.
I read a sentence..."The 2 halves are connected hydraulicaly be means of a crosover passage" That means absolutely squat.
I open it up to another page, and read a paragragh..it talks about gear ratios.. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the 1st sentence!!
So is the manual about gear boxes, or mathmatics, or physics?...we dont know
I turn the page and it talks about transmotions...so is the manual about transmitions, and if so what sort and for what?
I turn a whole bunch of pages, brake calipers, so what is the manual about, some sort of machine.?
So I turn back a heap of pages, carbertors, so we have a machine with a transmition, carb, and calipers.
We could make a gess and say its about a car, or tractor, or could it be a generator, or an airoplane...we still can only gess and chances are we would be wrong

To understand the machine this manual refers to, one has to take the manual as a whole...the same applies to any manual. To pull isolated 'quotes' sentices and even relate this between each other (as can be seen from the above) gives a very wrong impression.

Same goes for a manual on how to have a good life.

Althu ppl impress others with quotes here and there, Im not impressed, it doesnt mean they understand what they are quoting or more importantaly understand what the Whole manual is about.
The so often the quotes are misconscewed...take the clasic one about respecting elders...yeah we all had that thrown at us as kids lol
But one day I read the whole thing...sure its says respect them (or rather ther power that is entrusted to them)..but goes on to say to also say to understand what sort of ppl they are...
So if your teacher or boss is abusive, respect the power they have, but also reconise to be the assholes they realy are.

Unfortunately all my parents and grand parents where dead by the time I found this...and couldnt point it out to them lol I was lucky I had good ppl as parents and family...they see the humour in it lol

P.S The manual I have used above is a full service, repair, and rebuild for a 1969 Z28 Camaro

And being with your loved ones when u die...my family has been dead for 35 plus yrs..they are with me now, to hang with waiting till I die.
Some thing comes up, money, children whatever, I just ask what would they have me do...and the answer is there.
My daughter, (20) never met my parents or family, said the other day " Dad I know your parents as if they where alive now because I still treat and talk about them as real ppl"
One can choose to bury, their bodies And soul...
That just leaves one sad.
or just bury their bodies.
Their souls stay with us, help us, and even get passed onto those who never met them, as if they still live, and they Do truly live. That is a good feeling, even after 30yrs..I dont regret a moment of it...
Life=Soul dont kill a soul
(except it would have been nice for my children to have grandparents to go stay with in school holidays like I did)

I should right a book... "Life According to Steps" lol
but some bloody idiot would come along in a 100 yrs and turn it into some weird cult...and rip out out the preface that says "Dont believe a word u read, it is not intended for u to go out and ask for donations, get a big car, expensive suits, and suck others in to your agenda" lol

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:25 am

Steptoe wrote:

I keep a copy of the Koran..no I'm not Muslem..If one takes the time out to read it, theres a heap of stuff that is the same as the bible, just bit diff due to translations.

Muslims claimed that the Koran and not the New Testament is the accurate account of what happened in the life of Jesus.

‘Why should I believe that someone who lived 600 years after the event and hundreds of miles away from where it happened had the authentic record rather than those who were eye witnesses?’

If we were to reads the Bible and the Koran side by side it should be clear that both cannot be true since they negate each other on critical issues concerning the faith. On a superficial plane there are some similarities in the portrait of Jesus in the Koran and the New Testament – both say he was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and had performed miracles. Muslims also believe that Jesus will come again to the earth. But on close investigation it is clear that the Koran is speaking of ‘another Jesus’ who in fact is entirely different, from the Lord Jesus revealed in the New Testament.

If you claim to be a Christian incorporating anything from the Koran or it's teaching is clearly very dangerous and careless.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:10 pm

Quote:

If you claim to be a Christian incorporating anything from the Koran or it's teaching is clearly very dangerous and careless.

With all due respect...
From my post above

Quote:

The so often the quotes are misconscewed...take the clasic one about respecting elders...yeah we all had that thrown at us as kids lol

You quote me out of context...That was simply a bit of information for those who don't realise, as U ALSO stated and also make the point there are many close similarities in many of the verses.
The point was to illustrate why the next part of of my post worked

Quote:

Open it up read a few verses.
Well they recognise them but not quite sure cause the wording is only close...Any way they don't want to show they ignorance, and carry on...So I now quote something else meaningful...again a little more confused...So this time I close the Koran...in such a manner they can see what it is...
So with great intergence...I mean, they have seen the book's title..and ask "what book is that?"
So I turn it around and show them...you know in the same way polite they try to ram their books down your throught...sort of make u put your hand out manipulation...
Hmmm this really messes them up, cause for an instant they are sucked in everytime..they put their hand out, I move the book towards their hand Then say very clearly " Its the Koran"

Also u state within the above

Quote:

If you claim to be a Christian

Again if my posts are read CORRECTLY, and words are NOT once again put in my mouth, where do I claim or state that I am a Christian?
And from the latter don't assume that I am not because that also doesn't state either way.

Are u aware that leading traditional Theological Colleges also study Holy books other than the bible? This is part of the advanced training of Priests and Minister of the main stream Christian branches.

And

Quote:

‘Why should I believe that someone who lived 600 years after the event and hundreds of miles away from where it happened had the authentic record rather than those who were eye witnesses?’

If u Delve into the historical origins of the New Testament, u maybe quite surprised that that its compilation also has very similar origins and is not quite what is commonly believed. In fact the origins of the New Testament are from 2 compilations, 1 about the same age as the Koran and another several Centuries AFTER the Koran,
So to use that argument as to the accuracy of the Koran, also applies equally to the New Testament.
As the old Testament has been re vamped and translated many times over the centuries, the older parts of the Koran have also been, except less so.

Do Not assume I am arguing that the either the Koran or the Bible is the most correct or true Book. I simply state this from a historical point of view.

True Faith in the Word of God, is a simple understanding of that Word which is "be nice to others". It is this Word that at the end of the day IS what is important, and is not hard to to...Simplistic but so is the Word of God. So much is lost by red hearings being drawn across that Word in the justifcation of each 'sects' (Sect used in a very loose meaning of the word) version of the Word by man.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:50 pm

Quote:

historical origins of the New Testament, u maybe quite surprised that that its compilation also has very similar origins and is not quite what is commonly believed. In fact the origins of the New Testament are from 2 compilations, 1 about the same age as the Koran and another several Centuries AFTER the Koran,

WRONG...... and I'll end on that! ...... Smile

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:07 pm

Steptoe,

I am not sure what this has to do with jw's or the danger of being involved with cults? Altho I would love to discuss the differences of christianity indepth for hours. I feel that its my duty to help people from being entrapped into this cult or help them heal while leaving or after leaving the cult thats my main focus to help others. If you have questions or need help in this reguard let me know I will spend all day trying to help.

Quote:

To understand the machine this manual refers to, one has to take the manual as a whole...the same applies to any manual. To pull isolated 'quotes' sentices and even relate this between each other (as can be seen from the above) gives a very wrong impression.

I was not trying to impress anyone and am sure that many many know more than me about the bible it is obvious from your reply that your not interested in the differences and warnings about jws and cults that one should look for or heed per the topic of disscussion of this post.. again I am merly humbly trying to show you the difference in writing styles.. gramatical/literal and allegorical/metephorical but you dont seem interested or interested in the dangers of cults/jws so I am wondering why your replying to the thread?

Your posts have some vaguely valid points that most people would aggree with religious or not. Your own writing style displays and intense over use of the word "I" first person singular. It is plainly obvious that you care not to interest or involve the reader at all or are in anyway interested in topic as posted.

As for difference in opinons about how to belive.. we can just put that in gods hands. My main focus is to help the many many people that are suffering greatly under the influence and direction of a cult known as the JWs or anyone else that can benifit from my help.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:35 pm

To tell or anyone that they are WRONG then not to justify such a statement is piontless
If I am wrong, on anything, I will freely admit my mistakes.
In this case I can not do so.
A Simple Google search "origins of the New testament" Will bring up crack pot sites and reputable historical sites, Univeristies and Christian Theologic Colledges of all 'flavours' All stating basically the same historical and quoting fully documented archives that still to this day exist. [ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ]

Althu I am RIGHT I do not see the logic how a time line has any bearing on the simple truth of the Word of God.
There is an old saying "retrospect has 20/20 vision"

If we take a modern controversy...JFK
over the last 30 odd yrs not all the facts have been made pubic due to political agendas and what ever..Hence we have all sorts of theories and opinions, and that is all that they are.
But in another 50, 100 or 200 yrs, a combination of new information released, poltical agaendas expire, acheolical and forensic advances and information become avalible, the truth or very close to the truth will become known.

Therefore it would follow that any issue of time lines is just another a weak attempt by those to make irrelevant Red Hearings to Discredit the New Testiment Their arguement doesnt hold water, thu on 1st appearences it seems creditable, just as many of the varied conspiracy theories that currently float around about JFK and other recent historical events

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:42 pm

paris, I'm sorry to take this forum so far off topic and I promise you I'll post no more here..... Laughing

Steptoe,
Matthew, Mark, and Luke were all written before 70 A.D. The book of Acts was written by Luke. But Luke fails to mention the destruction of Jerusalem in 79. A.D., nor does he mention the deaths of James (A.D. 62), Paul (A.D. 64), and Peter (A.D. 65). Since Acts is a historical document dealing with the church, we would naturally expect such important events to be recorded if Acts was written after the fact. Since Acts 1:1-2 mentions that it is the second writing of Luke, the gospel of Luke was written even earlier. Also, Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple in the gospels: "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:5, see also Matt. 24:1; Mark 13:1). Undoubtedly, if Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written after the destruction of the Temple, they would have included the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in them. Since they don't, it is a very strong indication that they were written before 70 A.D.

The earliest known copy of the Koran is around 750 A.D. [ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ]

750 A.D. - 70 A.D. = ______________

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:36 pm

Awe its okay I am glad that you guys posted in the thread I am glad you took the time. Just wish that more people where interested in learning about and the proper ways to deal with jws when they come knocking..

Instead of story's of "how I showed them they are wrong" since you guys are so interested in dates.. one of the main belives that the jws have is reguarding certain dates in the bible I think you mite be fascinated how they where able to twist the dates around. these dates are very easy to twist around and even make some not so obvious mistakes reguarding the aceient calendering systems. if you guys are interested I will start a new thread if your interested?

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:07 pm

I have had my fill of JW on a personal family level, screwed us and 1 one my sons for many yrs...As he got older, the logic and simplcity of my beliefs turned things around in the last 10 months.

Here is another story...
Many yrs ago, as one chatts to ones young children about alsorts of things at bed time and Mum says they have school next morning lol.
Children have a habit everyso often of asking clanger questions and they need an awnser right there and then...which means a bit of fat thinking and it has to be creditable lol.
The question was. " I pray to God but he doesnt talk back"
My answer went along these lines.
God talks to us all the time, not just when u pray....u known when u speak or do something that is not very nice? your heart is not happy, and feels a little dark."
"Then when u do something nice for someone, help them out or just say hello with a simile...your heart feel nice and light, u fell warm inside"
THAT is God talking to u, follow your heart and Gods instincts and you will be a happy person, and have a good life..."

This also helped my son in his unforunate situation (didnt live in our home)
I never knocked the JWs, that would have just got his back up, I just put simplistic alternative concepts in front of him that logic is very, if not imposible to argue against...then left him to chew over for a few weeks lol

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:53 pm

Jesus testifies of Himself when He says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me". "For God so loved the world (you and me) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (you and me) believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life". There is only one way, my friends. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There is only one Way and that's through Jesus Christ and His attoning work on the cross. No other supposed "way" or "savior" has been sacrificed and rose again and was seen by hundreds of people as He ascended up into heaven. The new testament is His witness written by others, not by Himself. Even the great Jewish historian Josepheus was at a loss to explain these things but even though he was not a Christian, he still reported them as they happened.