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grantb
Regular
Regular


Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 67
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:17 pm Reply with quote

Ok, I have ben working on my theme for freaking months.. Everytime I work on the layout changes I get a little closer to having valid HTML 4.01 Transitional website ROTFL Anyways, I am down to the last (I freakin hope so anyways) few errors, about 20 (using the free w3c validator).

Now my question is this;

What can I do to get rid of these errors?.. I am trying to understand that tables = nonvalidation unless used in css. Is there a way to use tables and still be compliant?.. From what I have read, this is not possible. All the errors I have left in the validator are all:
Code:
end tag for "TABLE" which is not finished . 

      </table>
.. I have looked at a few good examples of html compliant phpnuke sites (ok - two..LOL- you know who you are) But this has really got me, I have looked at so many websites that talk about using tables but nothing for phpnuke specifically.

Any hints, tips or suggestions(besides give up) would be so much appreciated!!.. Thanks again just for reading this. Smile

Code:
Error Line 197, column 13: end tag for "TABLE" which is not finished . 

      </table>
Code:
196.  <table style="width: 100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> 

197.  </table>
198.  </td>
199.  </tr>
200.  </table>


ps. Raven your emoticons dont seem to show unless you click the "view more" link

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64bitguy
The Mouse Is Extension Of Arm


Joined: Mar 06, 2004
Posts: 1159
Location: Sanbornton, NH USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:21 am Reply with quote

Well, you wouldn't really create a table and then close it on the very next line.

The normal format is like this:
Code:
 <table>

<tr>
<td>
</td>
</tr>
</table>

If you have a tble inside of a table, it would probably look like this:
Code:
<table>

<tr>
<td>
     <table>
     <tr>
     <td>
     </td>
     </tr>
     </table>
</td>
</tr>
</table>


Notice the order... You close the last table/function first and work your way back.

If you publish a link to your site, I can probably give you some pointers.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

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Steph Benoit Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!
1CMS, 100% Section 508 and W3C XHTML/CSS Compliant (Truly) 
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grantb
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:35 pm Reply with quote

Thanks alot for that.. I don't know why I was having so much trouble understanding the order before. I did run into some things that really drive me nuts.. Like for example when making a module compliant it is not just the first page that you have to worry about it is every freaking page.. LOL.. and Some modules I have gone through have some really sloppy html. I have read that <table> tags are depreciated and that some day soon they will not even be compliant at all?? Thanks again for all your tips and great explanations, I am sure I will need it again soon! (so far after about 100 hrs<-most of that learning and over a couple of months I have most of my site compliant.. geeze what a job)
 
64bitguy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:47 pm Reply with quote

Well, as you no doubt have noticed, I have recoded every Nuke module for 100% W3C Compliance at my domain. Yes, it is a lot of work, but what is even harder is recoding all of the administration functions too.

To add insult to injury, once you are done, if you need to run a "Patched" update, you'll have to make all of those mods by hand because running "Patched" will wipe out all of your fixes. Oh Joy eh?
 
grantb
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:52 pm Reply with quote

I found it very difficult to find solutions for outdated or browser specific tags such as;
Code:
<embed width="130" height="115" src="./Clock.swf">
Of course after much searching I found that the <object> tag worked well.

I have also found my site to be over-all more tidy and consistent, showing the same in each different browser (which is sooo nice) and in some cases alot faster.

When I first checked my website with a html validator it showed over 600 errors on the index page alone.. and alot more on other pages. I have also aquired a new pet-peeve, people who place the w3c html valid button on their site when it has hundreds of errors. I could see if you had the odd page that had some problems but hundreds of errors? Do these people even check what the validation means or is it just another cool looking gif?.. LOL anyways enough rambling..
 
Raven
Site Admin/Owner


Joined: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 17077

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:57 pm Reply with quote

grantb wrote:
ps. Raven your emoticons dont seem to show unless you click the "view more" link

Seems pretty normal to me. My emotions won't show either until someone "clicks" my button Wink. Actually it's by design. I was going to change it and then it became just too much fun getting complaints ROTFL
 
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64bitguy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:46 am Reply with quote

Yeah, it always bothers me when people put those Icons up and they aren't even close to compliance also. To think FB includes that block when Nuke is anything but compliant never ceases to amaze me. It sure goes to show how much gall they guy has.

To address compliance, you might want to read this: Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!
 
grantb
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:38 am Reply with quote

Steph, I really like the direction that your 64bit site is taking. Support for w3c standards compliance, relating to nuke, is a rare find!
 
fkelly
Former Moderator in Good Standing


Joined: Aug 30, 2005
Posts: 3312
Location: near Albany NY

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:19 am Reply with quote

Getting back to the origin of this thread ... I've been working on an upgrade of my site from 7.4 (patched, with Sentinel) to 7.6 (Patched with Sentinel). On my production site I was using only the Deepblue theme and things seemed okay. I had edited out the couple of logos at the top of the page (actually the logo and sitename) and things ran smoothly.

In the process of doing the upgrade I installed another theme, subblack3dblue and was working on swapping back and forth between it and deepblue. I also had to re-edit the deepblue theme after first "importing it from the base 76 nuke and then overwriting the theme.php from the patched 3.1. This theme is a maze of overlapping tables and trying to figure out which tables and rows to delete was driving me crazy. I even started writing in comments (table1 row 1 starts here, table 2 row 2 starts here, now table 3 ends and like that). But then I got down to where the theme does function calls into mainfile and additional tables and rows are "included" conditionally and I gave up. I did my best and then I did a view source on the results (which looked okay). I copied the results into a file in Dreamweaver and ran its validator and of course there's a million errors. But what really bothered me were two unclosed tables at the end.

Then I started looking at subblack3dblue and that was a little better though it was littered with warnings from Dreamweaver. Then I copied over the Nukenews theme because the HOWTO says that the tables in it are mostly contained in a separate html file instead of in the theme.php. Phew, that was a lot easier to edit ... you can actually see where the tables begin and end and use the design mode of Dreamweaver to check things out. There are still a zillion validator errors but at least no unclosed tables.

Then I tried restoring the original deepblue theme, without any of my edits and guess what ... the tables are still not closed at the end. And there are lots of other serious errors with overlapping tags.

I also started looking at other sites including a couple that 64bitguy runs. Even those have some validation errors or warnings in Dreamweaver and I guess I'm wondering what the standard is for judging compliance. For instance capturing the source for Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! and running it thru Dreamweaver's validator results in a host of messages about font tags being deprecated, tr not a valid tag inside "tr", noshade attribute is not a valid value, > found between tags, quotation mark found between tags etc.

So I guess what I'm wondering is whether people have any good schemes for editing themes and whether there are themes out there that are really tested for compliance. I have to say that the deepblue theme version that I saw on one of 64bit's sites (I think it was the one for the 7.8 version) at least closed all the tables successfully.
 
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64bitguy
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:56 am Reply with quote

Keep in mind that without my CSS you are going to get validation errors inside dreamweaver. Next, yes, this is HTML 4.01 Transitional, so you are going to get deprecated tag errors inside dreamweaver (which is probably looking at XHTML compliance). Finally, yeah, you are probably goind to see other errors on that domain as well.

Instead take a look at the results you get at Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! (which is much more compliant based as it is rewritten specifically for that) and for XHTML Compliance, checkout Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! See what you get for results there.

As a heads-up, you should be able to see the DeepBlue theme fully HTML 4.01 Transitional compliant at Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! however, I have not yet recoded it for XHTML compliance at Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!

Just as a heads-up, I've found that dreamweaver, Tidy and W3C Validation don't always match. Sometimes Tidy picks up on things that the W3C misses and sometimes the W3C picks up on things that Tidy misses; however, I've found that in MANY MANY cases, they both find things that Dreamweaver gets wrong. Don't feel bad though, Adobe is 10x worse. Remember, if you want to ensure compliance, you also need to capture the CSS and import that too. That will make some of those errors go away. The last problem is that with jabascript enabled, Dreamweaver may interpret things incorrectly as it may see a single or inside quote tag improperly. That's not a page problem, it is a "by design" issue relative to using jabascript inside PHP inside HTML. The output is right, but Dreamweaver might not see it that way.

Steph
 
fkelly
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:36 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
As a heads-up, you should be able to see the DeepBlue theme fully HTML 4.01 Transitional compliant at Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! however, I have not yet recoded it for XHTML compliance at Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!


How do you deal with the tables within tables within tables, almost ad infinitum structure of the DeepBlue theme? Since the resultant html is generated code, Dreamweaver doesn't help me much and I pretty much have to capture the results and run it thru the validator, like I indicated above, and even then I get like 51 open tables and 49 close tables. Trying to match them up is maddening, I spent hours on it today and threw up my hands because there are also tr's and td's that don't match. The structure of themes like NukeNews seems much more amenable to making modifications without driving yourself insane (well I mean myself), because the html parts are separate from the php parts.

Tomorrow I will go back to a "virgin" Deepblue theme and try to verify that the opening and ending structures don't match (or if they do then I will know it's something I've done) but it sure would be nice if we had themes which were structured with indentations and comments to indicate the beginning and end of tables and even tr's and td's within the tables. Any suggestions in terms of how you or other programmers working with themes manage this would be welcome. Maybe it's just cool to leave a couple of open tables unclosed at the end of a html page but it gives this long time programmer the willy's.

Thanks again
 
64bitguy
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:01 pm Reply with quote

Tables inside of tables are very common in this mixed environment of coding (front end and back end-tables versus using CSS which would eliminate them).

Your biggest problem is that you are trying to identify how tables are mananaged in Dreamweaver which will never really be right because it can't see the conditions set by the .php aspect of the display (meaning the index.php of the module itself) or the open tables in a block.

You'll also run into trouble because when you think a problem may be in your theme, in fact, it may be in the module or even in a block's code.

To be honest, I wouldn't waste too much time on this. I say that because in the coming weeks, a version will be made available that includes completely fixed Nuke that yes, even includes a fixes DeepBlue theme.

Smile

Steph
 
fkelly
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:49 pm Reply with quote

Thank you again Steph and I will be awaiting the release of your "fixed" version. One thing about debugging the theme that occurred to me in the middle of the night, is that people can put html in the news that they submit as can the webmaster and that html could have an unbalanced table (say an open tag but no close) and thus the page would be "wrong" even if there was no "bug" in the theme. And the reason I mention that is to ask if your fixed version will preclude this problem from happening. The 7.6 version wouldn't have tinymce and I can't tell from looking at your 7.8 page whether the html editor would prevent someone from submitting "non-compliant" or erroneous html.
 
montego
Site Admin


Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: 9449
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:04 pm Reply with quote

Just ran into this thread. fkelly, just another thing to keep in mind that there are different schools of thought on pure CSS vs. tables. What you end up deciding to do is your call, BUT, you CAN be 4.01 Strict Compliance and still use tables.

Regards,
montego

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fkelly
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:26 pm Reply with quote

Back a couple of years ago I read a few sites that advocated the pure CSS approach and even saw some good pages that were developed that way. It sure seems foreign to the Nuke code though. By that I mean everything that I see in Nuke is dependent on tables for positioning. I would be interested if anyone knows of any themes that use CSS instead of tables for positioning, at least to evaluate the difference.

Having spent hours digging into the Deepblue theme what bugs me the most is the total lack of any apparent coding standards with the result that the thing is almost impossible to "follow". Want to modify something, like take the top headers out? Humm ... which tables do you get rid of or which rows and where is the close table code for that so you can eliminate it too? How about some comments in the code, like "this table is for the two logos that go at the top of the page" or "opening table 1" and giving the tables numbers or names and then stating when they are being closed. That's why the structure of the Nukenews theme appeals more to me and I may just adopt it; it just looks a lot easier to manage if you are ever going to make any changes.
 
montego
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:15 pm Reply with quote

fkelly, I agree. Actually, I haven't seen too many "clean" themes, but then again, you have to remember that these have to integrate with the rest of nuke. Not saying it cannot be done, but I would bet good money that it would take the level of effort that 64bitguy has already done to make a 100% 4.01 Transitional nuke site.
 
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