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Muffin
Client


Joined: Apr 10, 2004
Posts: 649
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 8:08 am Reply with quote

Quote:
In essence what you are saying is " I want the product, but I can't afford to pay for it so I should have it free."


What I'm saying is my husband and myself have to live on Ł100 GBP a week, thats for food and living expenses, thankfully our rent is paid for us as my husbands disabled.

If I didnt get subscriptions on my site to pay for the hosting costs it wouldn't exist anymore.

If it didnt exist anymore, I would be very unhappy and so would my club members who pay for the hosting between them.

I'm not the only one in the UK that has to live on a pittence from the Government because of disability.

It's people like me that would suffer.

But I do agree there are some people who have plenty of money but are just too tight to pay for something.

You have to think of the ones that can't afford it though for genuine reasons, and it's not fair to them.

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sharlein
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Joined: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 322
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:10 am Reply with quote

About 200 years ago, I met a man that created a program for HTML sites, called KISGB. I told him the his product was of commercial grade and that he should charge for it. I eventually paid for it by site donations, and will continue to do so. Zoom forward to 2004, and we have a group of people (Raven, Chatserve, Bob, GanjaUK, et al) that have products that are necessary for our sites to survive, and they all work. Support is freely given, without ridicule. I feel there is an urgency to keep these products up to date. I have a small family oriented site, (5/10 on google), but I feel that anybody can come on the site and find it as I intended it to be, not how some hacker thinks it should look like. Using my 30 years of being self employed as experience, I feel that when you have a program of this high quality, you should charge for it. I am not saying the price has to be high. I have paid low prices for programs, sometimes I get quality, and sometimes not, but the authors are generating some sort of income to use for development. I think that without your contibutions, phpNuke, at best, is a throw away. I will continue to support your decisions, Raven, but I think this idea has some merits. Thank you for listening - Steve

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storebuilder
PHP-Portal Project


Joined: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 169
Location: Telford UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:23 am Reply with quote

I understand your point.

Edited to say that I am replying to muffin.

My side of the argument is that before sentinel was even thought of phpnuke was released and people took to it in their thousands. Subsequently many people crashed and burned because of the inherent security flaws.

The reason it is riddled with security problems is because it is distributed as GPL.

If the originator of the product had decided instead on a commercial license then there would not be so many problems - because the paying public would castigate the originator for producing such a shoddy product and not incorporating the numerous fixes into the next release.

Whether or not the product would have got off the ground is a different matter entirely.

What I am arguing for is that decent modules/add on's get developed for phpnuke and the developers of those modules get compensated fairly for producing them. In return they offer to support the product.

Too often I come across applications that claim to do this or that but in reality are nothing more than a basic framework with no support and a "do not pm me for support" bottom line.

Choosing sentinel as my example was probably a poor choice as it is obviously such a vital piece of the jigsaw, but there are many more "advanced" modules and add on's that can be developed for a paying customer.

My bottom line on this is that Raven (who I respect immensely along with Chatserv and many others) who runs this site needs to start generating some revenue. The easiest way to do this is to charge for the product you produce and not give it away free.

If they choose to continue offering free support, free patches, free help, free applications etc then eventually they will pay a dear personal price for it themselves - and that is what I see happening.
 
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Raven
Site Admin/Owner


Joined: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 17077

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:44 am Reply with quote

Interesting discussion and an age old one, to be sure. Is it ethical to charge humanity for a cancer cure? Or for a Parkinson's cure? Are the developers entitled to compensation for their time and effort to get it to market? If so, how much? The human equation, I believe, is at the heart. I have been told for many months, as Steve said, that certain of my apps should be charged for. Maybe true. KISGB has been downloaded thousands of times from here alone. And I know it is offered across the Internet. A modest $10 would have yielded a nice chunk of change. But, what I believe sets my apps off from others is not so much the technology, but the support and willingness to make the products what the community wants. Is a guestbook worth $10.00 when there are tens of others that are free? Depends on whether $10 is a choice between groceries, medicine, or ?. I don't have answers and any 'answer' is more an opinion, I imagine. I will say that we have no intention of charging for Nuke Sentinel v2.0. But, at the same time, I do need to generate some revenue. I have many ideas for PHP and/or Nuke applications that I will charge for if I can just find the elusive butterfly - TIME Wink
 
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storebuilder
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:01 am Reply with quote

And my answer is that your time is very valuable to you .

If you had charged for kISGB when you first released it then you may not have gained all of those valuable backlinks to your site that give you a PR6.

PR6 expired domains sell for $2,000 + because they are high ranking sites.

Put the past behind you. You have contributed more to the open source community than most people could ever reasonably expect.

Time needs to be paid for.. and that's why you can't find any.

Googletap your site, make the simple adjustment to your page titles and you will be able to build a very successful and profitable hosting/programming business without compromising your ethical values.
 
sixonetonoffun
Spouse Contemplates Divorce


Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Posts: 2496

PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:01 am Reply with quote

I think storebuilder has made a legitimate point regarding the pro's and con's of using freeware vs paid scripts. On the other hand there are some great examples out there of GPL software but even there the argument could be made that development is painfully slow and could be more successful under private license.

Back to the original point what to do right now to enable this site to succeed?

I think there has been much testimony here that will prove out a solid plan for the future here. We all know that NC faced a similar problem but I firmly believe it was self induced to some extent. It was a classic case of to little too late. But I don't really want to go there either.

I would however like to hear from Bob M. who has managed to run one of the most successful nuke sites out there. Which still offers free support through various methods for its free and paid scripts.

On the other side of this I see our "Best Programmers" giving tons of time to support here in the forums which is somewhat counter productive since their time is best spent doing what they do best programing. Though I do also think that their presence is not only part of what keeps people coming back it gets to be way above and beyond when they are asked to fix scripts that haven't been actively updated since PHPNuke5.5!

These kinds of issues need to be put out there I know but it would be better for all if they were put on a list and someone would choose to maintain them on a permanent basis. I know of several modules where the originator has dropped development completely. So I'd like to see a forum created for this topic Applications Seeking Managers. And a second one for people seeking ports of public domain scripts. Not to say there will be a 100% success rate here but it helps to know what people are really after. Not to mention the potential to develop popular new addon's under private licenses.

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Raven
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:08 am Reply with quote

Storebuilder, you keep suggesting that I GT my site. My site has been GT's for quite a while now. There may be a couple new addons that I haven't gt'd, but the site is GT'd.

Six, I like the idea of the 2 forums. I will add them later today. I appreciate you volunteering to moderate them ROTFL
 
storebuilder
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:47 am Reply with quote

Yes - I looked and it was the new modules I was looking at.

So you are ahead of the game!

Do you remember talking to me on nukecops about it last September? i though not Wink you helped so many people.

The page title mod is the most important thing that you can do to make an immediate difference. Once you have done this then all of your forum posts and articles will become visible on search engines.

A search engine like google is looking for "relevance". If it finds a page title like "how to generate revenue" then that term will be found when someone searches for "how to generate revenue".

But your site will not be found if the page title is "Ravens php scripts forums-posting-how to generate revenue".

You need the article title in the "page title".

That's why I have badgered you for so long about page titles and stuff Wink

Make this adjustment and you will see HUGE traffic gains in short order.
 
storebuilder
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:57 am Reply with quote

And Six - I think you have hit the nail on the head - good suggestion!
 
Muffin
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:23 pm Reply with quote

I think the 2 forums idea is brilliant too.

storebuilder, no offence taken and I did take what you said onboard about coders time needing to be paid for. I agree wholeheartedly there.

I think Bob's site has a good mix of some paid for and some free scripts btw.

A small thing we can all do to promote this site is to put a link on our own. Although most of my visitors wouldnt know a php script from a fairy story. lol

Whatever is decided I'm with you guys!
 
HauntedWebby
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Posts: 363
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:39 am Reply with quote

storebuilder wrote:
If the originator of the product had decided instead on a commercial license then there would not be so many problems - because the paying public would castigate the originator for producing such a shoddy product and not incorporating the numerous fixes into the next release.


Hmm ... I wish Microsoft would have learned that lesson. :p

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HauntedWebby
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:04 am Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
Is it ethical to charge humanity for a cancer cure? Or for a Parkinson's cure?


Yes it is because that funds future development. Being a cancer survivor I know how expensive it is beyond what insurance paid and it was worth every dime. Sure many time I couldn't go to the movie or buy a script I really wanted because I was paying for medication that was $22 a pill that I had to take 4 times a day. But now I can just rent to movies I missed, the scripts are still available (and better) and I can enjoy life. As the old saying says .. The best things in life are not always free.

Raven wrote:
Is a guestbook worth $10.00 when there are tens of others that are free? Depends on whether $10 is a choice between groceries, medicine, or ?.


Here's my opinion on this one. Most of the people who are using KISSB or any other script (in general) are paying for a domain, web hosting service and an internet connection .. if dial up a phone line also. So if they have to "decide" if they want a script or groceries ... then they shouldn't have to other stuff either. Lets look at the numbers. I have 36 domains, so I pay $322.20 a year for just names. I have web hosting at 2 places, so I pay $623.40 a year for space/bandwidth. Then there is my time, no definitive way to calculate but I'll base it on if I was doing this as a job, I spend about 6 hours a day, between 5 to 7 days a week programming on my sites. So lets say as a programmer I make $10 an hour (I know some make more, some make less) and we average it to 6 days a week (nice middle road), my time is worth $18,720.00 a year. Combined now I'm at $19,665.60 I spend on my websites per year ..... now how can I come up with an excuse that I can't afford $10 or donate to a website that gives me 90% of my scripts for free ... other then I'm cheap?!? And why do I spend so much on my websites? Because I want to. Are my websites of any importance .. not really. I choose what scripts I use, I know which ones I wish or want to use. If I have to pay for something I want, I pay for it, as long as it’s not in the thousands of dollars. That’s when I bark about scripts costing too much. But a couple hundred or below .. they are well worth it!!
 
Raven
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:56 pm Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great ideas and support! I have installed the Nuke Treasury mod and am taking some steps for making the site more googlish, not to be confused by Haunted Webby as ghoulish Laughing. RavensScripts
 
Tao_Man
Involved
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Joined: Jul 15, 2004
Posts: 252
Location: OKC, OK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:02 pm Reply with quote

Saw the new block, looks nice, I guess I will have to cough up some as this has been the best nuke site (there are many good ones, don't want to hurt anyones feelings)

You really work hard to keep this place running.

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storebuilder
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:57 am Reply with quote

I was doing some research today for a client - this identifies the proble that you need to correct:
Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!

Edit - rather than put the full string here you can do the check if you wish to do so.

Regards
Tony
 
Raven
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:03 am Reply with quote

storebuilder wrote:
I was doing some research today for a client - this identifies the proble that you need to correct:
Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login!

Edit - rather than put the full string here you can do the check if you wish to do so.

Regards
Tony
Huh?
 
Muffin
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:19 am Reply with quote

Well I got 100% on that check for my site with all the search engines, maybe I could give you a few tips storebuilder rofl
 
SmackDaddy
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Posts: 268
Location: Englewood, OH

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:48 am Reply with quote

Thought I posted this....but the cyber-ether took it again.... Bang Head

Suggestions for Raven:

1. Combine the three "donation" images in the two adjacent blocks (Donate-O-Meter and "Services Available" as the three donation links seem a bit redundant...

2. Instead of charging per script, maybe having a free and members only section on the site where paid members get access to all your scripts....similar to something found at albini.net -- although the site owner at albini.net allows access via "donations", call it what you will, it still is allowing access to a members only section......

Just some some thoughts....
 
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HauntedWebby
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:41 am Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
Haunted Webby as ghoulish Laughing. RavensScripts


Brat Razz
 
blaize
New Member
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Joined: Dec 01, 2005
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:52 pm Reply with quote

I know this is an extremely late contribution lol but here goes anyway.

One of the reasons phpnuke is so popular is not only that it's free but that Raven & Chatserv between them have made it secure. If you start charging for the secure addons less & less people will take you up on it so therefore many more insecure phpnuke installations so it becomes a vicous circle.

One thing I would be more than willing to subscribe to though is something like an email newsletter or a hidden private forum, where the latest list of say abuse referrers or list of attacker ips is constantly updated or anything like that. Even if you were to only charge $1 per month to subscribers & got 500 people who were willing to pay the $12 yearly, that would amount to $6000.

Anyway just a belated idea.

blaize

(Sorry, edited for poor spelling)


Last edited by blaize on Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total 
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Guardian2003
Site Admin


Joined: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 6792
Location: Ha Noi, Viet Nam

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:47 am Reply with quote

Thats an excellent idea!
In fact if one used something like CM2F, you could code NS to email new union exploit attempts, new harvesters etc directly to the 'hidden' forum.

I still think there should be a small charge for 'the latest and greatest' release of NS and then the previous version could be free - just like FB does with phpNuke.
This means those that with little funds available can still get protection, just not the latest protection - best of both worlds.

I also happen to think this particular model provides an incentive to the code author to get new versions out with more bells and whistles.
 
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blaize
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:07 am Reply with quote

Bells & whistles are great but security & stabilty are what brought me to Raven & Chatserv.

In all honesty there have been times when I've despaired about phpnuke releases and truth be told I wouldn't pay for the "latest and greatest" phpnuke release because 1. the newest release is usually buggy & 2. the newest release is insecure until Chatserv gets his hands on it.

Charging for the latest release also means that more people will wait for the free version and thereby decrease the monetary value of that approach. If you already have the free product isn't it more likely that you'll pay for something that adds a little extra something to it's effectivness?

If members were allowed to subscribe to say a hidden forum they wouldn't only be supporting Sentinel but also these forums and everything else that goes along with it. In that way the subscription is not tied to one item or product giving the webmaster a lot more latitude with what he can offer.

Again this is just my opinion.

blaize
 
Raven
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:44 am Reply with quote

You may have hit upon a winner. I like it. I'll wait a little to hear what others have to say.
 
Guardian2003
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:52 am Reply with quote

blaize, yes, that is what I meant - sorry for my poor choice of words.
I meant added functionality or at least *added value*.
Bells and whistles are fine provided they bring something of 'value' to the product and not just haveing 3 extra bells for the sake of having them.

For example, the NS IP tracking page which lists recorded IP's, a button to ban a listed IP might be considered *added value* as it provides a quicker means of banning that IP rather than go back to the main NS menu, selecting blocked IPs and then entering the details by hand.

I would have to disagree that offering a previous version of a product for free would de-value the product.
Several things spring to mind.
1. It means that those with low incomes can still get protection with the previous version. After all, NS is about the generosity of those coders concerned with making the product providing something to help protect the many, many nuke sites out there.

2. Those that want and get the latest toys are invariably those that have the cash to buy them - and dont forget, we are only talking a few bucks here, not hundreds of kaching!
3. As with any product that is not domain locked or has some form of encrypted license verification system, it will eventually find its way into the open market eventually.
4. Yes, there will always be others that make products with a similar aim (site protection) who may give their products for free but, in this scenation, surely it would just encourage coders to make a *better* product and this has to be good for everyone.
 
blaize
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:23 pm Reply with quote

Hello Raven & Gaurdian2003,

I hope we can find some way of getting some cash in to support the site and the scripts that are developed here.

I like the idea of the button to add blocked ips as a value added feature Guardian2003 & I don't think offering a previous version for free and a new version for a price would devalue NS. My point is only that most people would wait for the free version or find a way to get the paid version for free from somewhere else.

If experience is anything to go by with phpnuke & please bear in mind that right now I'm talking about phpnuke not NS, putting a price on the latest newest release has been one of the contributing factors in the too early release of each new version of nuke. in my humble opinion the rush to get new releases out for the paid subscribers is a major contributing factor in the "bugginess" of a lot of the later phpnuke releases so that tends to make me cautious about a subscription scheme that would potentially put a lot of pressure on the coders to produce.

NS is about the skill, experience, patience & generousity of the coders but remember this site is about more than just NS. There's also ChatServ's patched series that we've all come to depend on and as I found earlier to my great relief Raven's customized distros that have everything bundled so it would seem odd to charge for just NS & not the rest.

What would be a great value added product to me though is a complete distro that would be patched, have NS installed and also have some of the handiest forum mods like the advanced quick reply, forum watch, topic merge, printable version and perhaps some of the other more popular ported forum mods installed. Now that would reduce some of the major headaches out of securing and updating many sites. That's just another idea again to go along later with the hidden subscriber's forum which costs the webmaster nothing to set up in money and very little in time as the tools are already here in the forum.

Anyway again it's great to be able to contribute to the debate and I hope our exchange of opinions can help spark some enthusiasm in finding a way to bring some funds in.

blaize
 
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