Extremes

Site Admin/Owner Joined: Aug 27, 2002 Posts: 17088

Well, this article is not about presenting the Gospel. It is a teaching on Spiritual Gifts and I think he does an excellent job on that. I do agree with him in almost all points. I haven't read any other articles so I haven't any comment on that. As to negativity, well, God has much to say that is negative. God hates many things. And, Scripture is full of woe's unto those who call good evil and evil good. So, it would definitely depend on the subject.

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:49 pm

Raven,
I just ran into your forums centered around Religion and am truelly impressed with the clarity of your thinking and writing. In fact, it seems so familiar to me. Do you, by chance, know what I.C.E. stands for related to bible teaching? Sorry for the terse post, but my curiousity has gotten the best of me.

Regards,
montego

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:57 pm

I can't say that I.C.E rings a bell. What does it stand for?

Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:37 am

Raven and others,

This type of biblical teaching is based on the belief that the only Divinely Inspired version of scripture was that of the original authors in the original languages. Based on that belief, the following identifies what each of the ICE letters stand for:

isagogical - this is the study of ancient history, the times that the original authors lived in, so that the historical context is taken into account while studying the usage of the original language constructs. It is basically trying to understand the context within which the various author's use of words and phrases. For example, today we say things like "Get out of here!" which is usually not used as a real command, but can be used as an emphasis on basically "really?" or "no kidding?" etc... Bad example, really. A better one would be some reference to some technology that we have today such as nuclear weapons or the Internet. Back then, these things would have been meaningless and who knows, may have different meanings 200 years from now (if the Lord waits that long to come back).

categorical - this is the comparing of scripture with scripture throughout the Bible and coming up with clear categories of doctrines so that the entire doctrine can be understood, taught and applied the way humans tend to think (in terms of categories of information).

exegetical - this is again based on the belief that the only Inspired version of scripture is the original languages and that God allowed for both the personality of the author and His Inspired Principles to become the Word of God. Therefore, the prepared Pastor Teacher studies the original languages, "line-by-line, precept-upon-precept" [essentially word for word], taking all of the above into account as well as the personality of the author, to translate the scripture and pull out the meaning - of course, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the gift of Pastor Teacher. For example, Paul on occassion gets excited in his writings and leaves out certain words (just like us when we leave out unessential words). But, this gives a very clear indication that if Paul is getting excited about it, then it gives the Pastor Teacher studying that text some clues as to its meaning / importance to our Spiritual Walk.

While I am not a Theologian and may not have the exact right definitions of these, I believe that this gets the points across.

I grew up with Pastor Thieme as my Pastor Teacher (he has since retired). He has over 11,000 hours of teaching on tapes and printed materials. His Bible Ministries and Church website is http://www.berachah.org/ for anyone who may be interested. My Pastor now is Robert McLaughlin, who has many, many hours of Bible classes accessible via his web site too (again, if anyone is interested): http://www.gbible.org/.

Very exciting it is to have the Grace of God so abound in our lives and be touched with such wonderful bible teaching as these and to have fellowship with other members of the Royal Family of God! It has meant so much to me and my family and close friends.

Best regards to all,
montego

Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:35 am

I believe I would subscribe to this although I have never heard of it, per se, and will investigate it further. One must always compare Scripture with Scripture and must examine it in context. The Bible does not contradict itself - ever. The original language is most important as it reveals the true thought that God intended. The English language does not come near enough in so many cases and that is why so many will argue and debate. Thanks for this insight.

registered · New Member Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 18

As far as healing goes. You came too late to tell me God doesn't heal anymore. I have laid hands on a brother while in prayer, not knowing anything about his needs no elaborate prayer. Simply, Lord touch my brother and then left the room. Next week he testified to that instance. He had a knot about the size of a hard ball cut in half in his back. When I prayed for him it instantly disappeared. It was not me, it was God for sure. No big healing line. No great emotions. That is just a drop in the bucket of things people haved been healed of today. In this time. God NEVER changes. why would he do something then and not now? Really, think about it. Let me remind you of a scripture. and these signs shall follow them that believe. notice, they follow those who believe. one of those signs found in that scripture (and this isn't the only place this is talked about) is laying hands on the sick and they shall recover. Raven, as you said above never set your eyes on man, he will let you down. Keep your eyes on God, he will never let you down. It is also fruitful to be said, Be careful of the things you learn of man. For there are many who teach their own doctrine not knowing the truth of God. If someone's teaching does not line up with the Word of God then they are lying. This may not be an intentional lie, but it is untrue, none the less. For many people speak what they know that other people have taught them, assuming that the people who taught them had to know it was true, for whatever reason (the person teaching was a godly person and knew more than they did about the word, etc.). In these last days we have to get back to the Word. Let God's word be true and every man a liar. God still uses us today. He is looking for Holy (set apart to the service of God) vessels to fill and use. No, he doesn't heal everybody. He never did. Think about the man laying at the pool of Bethesda. He wasn't the only one there at the pool but he was the only one that Jesus healed as far as what was recorded in the scripture. Then there is the story of how Jesus could not do many healings because of their unbelief. He just healed a few sick folk. Jesus we are talking about here. Yes God still uses people to do his work. No I can't explain why he chooses some and not others. No I do not believe he has certain people that can do "healings". He is not going to let flesh glory in his presence. When you have someone saying they have the "gift of healing" and people are coming to see this man from all over to get healed. It is not right. Have I been used to heal any one else? Maybe, if so I didn't know it. I know I have been healed of divers ailments myself and I know of many others who have as well.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:16 pm

You have misread and misstated my posts. I NEVER said that God does not heal. That would be ludicrous. I said that I do not believe that the Gift of Healing that was given to the Apostles for a specific purpose at a specific time is no longer being given out by the Holy Spirit. It was a 'sign' gift of the times.

Of course God uses His children today. Please read all of my posts more closely. If you, as well as others have the 'sign' gifts today, then use them as the Apostles used them. Heal a man who has been paralysed all of his life. Go into the hospitals and heal the terminally ill. Those are the kinds of healings that are recorded in Scripture and are proof positive of the Gift of Healing. God answers prayer today, as always, and you do not need to touch a person to heal them.

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:32 pm

No one has said that God doesn't heal. They are saying God doesn't give the gift of healing to people anymore.

I don't believe God gives things then takes them away from us.

Quote:

When Paul was writing to Timothy he advised him on his health. "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1 Tim. 5:23). Why didn't Paul just heal Timothy? Timothy had enough problems without having stomach problems. Why didn't Paul just use his gift of healing instead of giving him some advice on how to help the problem?

This is really reading into the scriptures. Maybe it wasn't God's will for Paul to heal Timothy? All gifts are subject to God's will. You may have the gift of Evangelism but not every person you whitness to is going to get saved. It still requires faith on their part to be saved. You can't get saved unless the Holy Spirit calls you. Does this mean you don't evangelize? Same with healing. God does use people to accomplish his will. He always has.

Quote:

In 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul had to leave Trophimus behind at Miletus because Trophimus was so sick. Why didn't Paul, who had raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:10), just heal Trophimus? The only explanation seems to be that this ministry -- this particular gift of healing -- is being phased out, because in 2 Timothy, Paul is close to the end of his ministry. It was no longer necessary to validate Paul's ministry by the miraculous -- Paul's writings were beginning to be recognized as Scripture (2 Pet. 3:15 16).

Once again I believe EVERYTHING is subject to God's will. Just because someone is not healed doesn't mean Paul has had this gift removed. If God decided to remove this gift completely don't you think we would have a little stronger proof in the scriptures.

I think the quotes above are excellent proof that God decides who heals. Even if it was an Apostle.

Quote:

Philippians 2:27 gives another example where Paul does not (cannot) heal a fellow Christian,

The writer here puts his own twist on the scripture. Paul didn't heal someone so that means he could not heal them.

Quote:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

This verse is quite clear IMO.

I think what it comes down to is do you believe that the gifts (all of them) are subject to God's will or does He give them with the power to use however and whenever you want.

I believe all gifts are subject to God's will. They are all subject to His plan and His timing.

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:31 pm

Quote:

I believe all gifts are subject to God's will. They are all subject to His plan and His timing.

Absolutely TheosEleos, that's part of what I am trying to say.

Raven, I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.

Quote:

Of course God uses His children today. Please read all of my posts more closely. If you, as well as others have the 'sign' gifts today, then use them as the Apostles used them. Heal a man who has been paralysed all of his life. Go into the hospitals and heal the terminally ill. Those are the kinds of healings that are recorded in Scripture and are proof positive of the Gift of Healing. God answers prayer today, as always, and you do not need to touch a person to heal them.

Please understand, I do not think I have any "gift" of healing. I was only trying to testify that God used me to heal. Trying to show that the "gift" of healing is still in use today. In america you will not see this happen much. People here do not have much faith. People here (not talking about the homeless, merely on a whole) are increased with goods and have need of nothing (so they think). Go somewhere where people depend on God to provide their food every day. You will see these things happening. I have never seen it with my own eyes (but know I will) but have heard reports from many from other countries that are just hearing of this gospel that have their dead raised, blind eyes opened, deaf ears unstopped, dumb can speak (haven't heard of any that are lame in a bed though?). These kinds of things take place today.
Yes, I absolutely agree that you do not need to touch a person to heal them.
I also believe that it is not just for a select few. I believe these sign should follow all believers.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:33 pm

Let me add, it is not the lack of faith that hinders healing. It is the unbelief that is present.

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:02 pm

I respectfully would have to disagree with the statement that healings no longer happen. In the days of the New Testament writings, man was used as a vessel from God to heal the injured or sick. Today, the same happens, God uses man to heal different ones. Just as in the old days, man doesn't do the healing, God does! I don't believe people have ever heal by themselves, but God used them to heal. They couldn't have done it on their own.

I just stumbled across your forums today. Smile

I have been here numerous times, and for one reason or another, missed these forums. Today they have truly been a blessing to me reading through them. Thank you for being open to the Spirit and starting them.

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:31 pm

Not sure which post you are referring to, but if it's mine, I content that the Holy Spirit no longer gives out the Gift of healing to men. God still heals, always has, and will continue to do so as long as we are in this human vessel. But, the gift of healing, as revealed in the NT, is certainly not in action today. The various sign gifts were given to attest to the person that Jesus Christ is/was and by what authority. God, as per His divine will, may choose to answer prayer in order that His name is glorified. But, NT healers, could command a man who was lame all his life to stand up and walk!~ That has NEVER happened since. Paul, the "greatest of all' Apostles, was not able to heal his own infimities. God heals and always has. Men were temporarily given a special divine dispensation to be able to lay hands and/or command healing and 100% of the time, God honored it, until the "gift", or maybe better stated the manifistation of the gift, was put away.

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:10 pm

So Raven if I understand you correctly, I would just ask why you might think that if God gave them this special gift to heal then, why would he not now also. Yes the NT healers commanded men who were lame to stand, but only through the awesome power of God through faith. Not by the power of these individuals. So if that is the case, why would it not be able to happen today? I have seen God use people to reach out to others in times of need, to spiritually lift them up when they were down, to brighten their day when they are gloomy, to comfort them when they are distressed. He uses others to enlighten us, to lead and guide us, to confront us when we stray. Why would He not use some to heal? Maybe I missed your point totally, I don't know, but I guess I don't understand why God would use so many different ways of helping man but withdraw the gift of healing. Now I don't profess that all have the gift of healing. Some have the gifts of discernment, others the gift of tongues, we all have certain gifts. Some use their gifts the way God intended, some don't know what their gifts are yet. Some may never know until the day they meet Him. I continue to do what I consider gifted to do, until the day the Good Lord tells me to do something else. I don't have the gift of healing, but I believe that there are ones who do. No Paul couldn't heal himself. God had a reason for keeping him the way he was. Did God use Paul to heal others, either spiritually or physically? I don't know why some are heal and others are not. I see only a very small picture of life, God sees the whole picture. There are some things I won't be able to understand, and there are some things that I find just hard to believe, but one day I will have the answers to all my questions.

This is so cool. To sit here and get others opinions and feelings on different subjects. Some I don't agree with, and some I do. But even on the ones I don't necessarily agree with, it makes me stop and think, so I in turn am better for it. Thanks all. Have a great day.

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:41 pm

The "temporal" gifts, as they are known in Theology, served a distinct and specific purpose for a defined time and "age", if you will. I am a dispensationalist. and believe that God has one plan but reveals it in different ways and times. Since God (Jehovah) was turning to the Gentiles after His own people rejected Christ, the Apostles needed special "powers" (gifts) to authenticate their ministry.

To summarize where I am coming from, this sums it up [ Only registered users can see links on this board! Get registered or login! ] . it does not mean that I "worship" any of these men, but I do agree with them scriptuarally and with their interpretation.